1986 Miami-Dade: .357 Magnum or .38 Special?

[WrongHanded]

This may have been covered, but To further the preparedness point, pretty sure two agents had double stacked 9mm pistols and at least one was a very accomplished shooter. He missed 24 times, apparently because his glasses flew off in the wreck leading up to the shootout. It is reasonable to believe that had he had a $2 strap for his glasses the end result may have been very different. Pretty sure he was one of the fatalities as well.

I believe (recalling from what I read) at least 3 of the guys were SWAT trained, and those guys were allowed to carry the 9mm pistols. There were 4 such pistols carried between the entire group (including those who arrived late/after). There was also an MP5, an AR-15/M-16, and a bunch of 12ga shotguns.

The guy who got the hit that failed to penetrate far enough to puncture the heart, also hit Platt twice more during that time he was escaping through the passenger window. Once in the thigh, and once in the foot. Apparently from a distance of about 15 yards, in the space of 3-4 seconds. Down right slow by today's standards.

 

[IWAC]

Yeah my 3'' to 4" gun "357mag ammo" is mild 357 to hot 38spl+p. It's a bit hotter than 9mm+p of the same weight out of a 5 inch barrel.

Years ago, my Brother in Law and I settled on the "hot .38-light 357 Magnum" round as our go-to ammunition, feeling that would be enough for almost any situation we might find ourself in. Something between .38 +P and 357 starting loads.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The guy who got the hit that failed to penetrate far enough to puncture the heart, also hit Platt twice more during that time he was escaping through the passenger window. Once in the thigh, and once in the foot. Apparently from a distance of about 15 yards, in the space of 3-4 seconds. Down right slow by today's standards.

There's a gunfight standard today for hitting a threat multiple times while engaged in a gun battle you are losing?

 

[sgt127]

Ok. Since this thread popped back up. A friend, who is a name in The shooting industry, relayed a story.

The FBI called in several top pistol shooters. They wanted to film them, in slow motion, and see what was going on…what, exactly, they were doing.

They did. And we are are talking top tier. World champions.

Called them back in after all the video was reviewed and Studied.

“We have determined you are doing it wrong. You are slapping the trigger. You are not “feeling” for the reset.”

“Why am I faster than you, with better hits?”

“We don’t know…but, all of our instructors agree…you are doing it wrong…”

 

[earlthegoat2]

Ok. Since this thread popped back up. A friend, who is a name in The shooting industry, relayed a story.

The FBI called in several top pistol shooters. They wanted to film them, in slow motion, and see what was going on…what, exactly, they were doing.

They did. And we are are talking top tier. World champions.

Called them back in after all the video was reviewed and Studied.

“We have determined you are doing it wrong. You are slapping the trigger. You are not “feeling” for the reset.”

“Why am I faster than you, with better hits?”

“We don’t know…but, all of our instructors agree…you are doing it wrong…”

Institutionalism is a tough nut to crack.

 

[Riomouse911]

Many issues led up to the end results.

From the initial stop where vehicles were used to box in the crooks, to complacency involving the gear the agents selected, to a gross underestimation of the adversaries. This was a train wreck from the word go.

Improvements in suspect history “work up”, initial contact response plans, escape/extraction plans, tactical actions, gear, firearm selection, range training AND ammo performance were all a result of the examination and dissection this incident.

Stay safe.

 

[9mmepiphany]

“We have determined you are doing it wrong. You are slapping the trigger. You are not “feeling” for the reset.”

“Why am I faster than you, with better hits?”

“We don’t know…but, all of our instructors agree…you are doing it wrong…”

Obviously those instructors did not understand that trigger management, much like perceiving sight alignment, is a progression...it isn't a static target

 

[fastbolt]

...
“We have determined you are doing it wrong. You are slapping the trigger. You are not “feeling” for the reset.”

“Why am I faster than you, with better hits?”

“We don’t know…but, all of our instructors agree…you are doing it wrong…”

OMG.

If it was me, I'd remind them that they called me ... and don't bother doing it again.

Sadly, I've heard similar silliness.

Give 'em some hair care products, compliment their nicely pressed BDU-like pants and matchy-matchy polo shirts ... and let them go their own way. No biggie.

 

[fastbolt]

Then FBI's Miami-Dade tragedy (also a debacle), like the North Hollywood bank robbery, left a lasting impression on LE.

I wasn't part of our FTU for the Miami-Dade incident, but I'd been part of it for several years by the time the North Hollywood incident occurred. We were still talking about the Miami-Dade incident by the time I joined out FTU, and like a lot of agencies we received and viewed the FBI's film about the Miami-Dade incident, and discussed it from both the tactics and gear perspectives, as well as the lessons that could be learned from the firearms instructor angle. We continued to carry our issued (.357MAG) and optionally authorized (.44MAG, .45Colt/ACP) revolvers for a few years post Miami-Dade, but someone pushed the decision to follow the trend to 9mm's in '89/'90, and we jumped on the W-W 147gr OSM JHP bandwagon for a bit. The firearms instructor school I attended during that time was one of the those where the FBI participated, meaning they provided instructors for both classroom and range training. One of the FBI instructors (on the range) said he liked his S&W 10mm, and from what little he dropped, he was a field agent serving on a task force.

There were a lot of lessons learned bought at a dear price from that Miami-Dade event ... but gear and handgun caliber/ammunition wasn't usually considered by general LE to be that high on the list. Tactics and planning? Well, ....

 

[Riomouse911]

Then FBI's Miami-Dade tragedy (also a debacle), like the North Hollywood bank robbery, left a lasting impression on LE.

I wasn't part of our FTU for the Miami-Dade incident, but I'd been part of it for several years by the time the North Hollywood incident occurred. We were still talking about the Miami-Dade incident by the time I joined out FTU, and like a lot of agencies we received and viewed the FBI's film about the Miami-Dade incident, and discussed it from both the tactics and gear perspectives, as well as the lessons that could be learned from the firearms instructor angle. We continued to carry our issued (.357MAG) and optionally authorized (.44MAG, .45Colt/ACP) revolvers for a few years post Miami-Dade, but someone pushed the decision to follow the trend to 9mm's in '89/'90, and we jumped on the W-W 147gr OSM JHP bandwagon for a bit. The firearms instructor school I attended during that time was one of the those where the FBI participated, meaning they provided instructors for both classroom and range training. One of the FBI instructors (on the range) said he liked his S&W 10mm, and from what little he dropped, he was a field agent serving on a task force.

There were a lot of lessons learned bought at a dear price from that Miami-Dade event ... but gear and handgun caliber/ammunition wasn't usually considered by general LE to be that high on the list. Tactics and planning? Well, ....

I have mentioned before that many agencies took to heart the nearly identical lessons that the Norco bank robbery taught LE many years before North Hollywood, but most stuck their heads in the sand. “That can’t happen here” is a class that far too many LE executives take, then when it does their staff freeze like deer in the headlights until it is over. (Uvalde, anyone? That was just the most recent example.)

The tragedy of that incident in Miami humiliated the FBI, and they had to do something to make the loss of those agents in such an awful manner mean something. Lessons were learned and lots of things changed across the board. Most of it was change in a good way, which is the best one could hope for.

Stay safe.

 

[Homerboy]

A friend of mine is retired FBI. He said you could carry .357 with supervisor approval. He said he carried 4 38 +P and the last two were .357. He figured if the first 4 didn’t do the job he better make the last two count.

 

[sgt127]

Hollywood was not really the street cops fault. Rifles and slug guns weren’t really available. At Miami, I think the FBI Agents COULD have carried heavier…

 

[golden]

When you wonder why they would carry .38 Special ammo in .357 magnum revolvers, consider that after telling the world that the 9m.m. was the reason for the FBI nearly loosing the MIAMI gunfight and that only a 10m.m. would due, quickly followed by only a .40 S&W would get the job done, they have now gone back to the 9m.m.!
It is great to talk about stopping power, but more important to senior management that everybody qualify and the .38 +P beats the .357 magnum department easily in that area.
My agency did the same thing and the firearms officer told me it was because of all the problems with getting officers to qualify. That 147 grain 9m.m. load is fairly mild in the recoil department.

Jim