1st Stock Refinishing - Advice/Tips Would Be Appreciated

[TMiller556]

Hey candyman, thanks for the reply. Your story inspires me and I also find your work amazing and inspiring. I appreciate you taking the time to help me out and the fact that you're helping people out and passing on what you learned is great. It must be the best feeling to prove people wrong when they say a stock cant be fixed What really threw me off is all of the different methods that people use to refinish. Everyone I have asked has had different methods and I did not know which one to use. For example, I hear people mention steps such as filling the pores and sealing the grain and then I look at a different method and they don't even mention it The stock that I'm working on (the pictures above) doesn't look right and I guess I didn't start off on the right foot. I should have done more research before I started but oh well. Like you said I should, I'm currently reading a book on refinishing, it's called Furniture Repair and Refinishing Ultimate Guide... and I'm learning a lot of new things. I'm also using the stickies on SRF and find them extremely helpful and they also teach me new things. So my question is, the stock that I'm working on now, should I wet sand a couple coats of finish? I've applied 4 coats now and the stock still hasn't started to look any better. From the pictures and the steps I listed above, can you tell what I didn't do right so I don't do it next time? How long should I wait after wet sanding before apply another coat? Thanks

 

[TMiller556]

I'm not sure if you can tell from the pictures, but there is still what looks like the old finish still on the stock, how do I get rid of that if I already put tung oil on the stock? When I was sanding, it all came off but now it seems to have started showing again. Is it natural or can it be oil, dead wood, etc.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Like I said before, There is more then one way to skin a cat and even more ways to refinish a stock.
First you have to ask yourself some questions about the stock you are going to work on. You don't have to ask these questions out loud, someone might think your a little nets.
#1 Why do you want to refinish?
#2 What type of use will it see?
#3 What type of look do you want the stock to have?
#4 Will the finish on the stock look correct with the finish on the rifle?
#5 Will the wood you will be working with allow you to get the finish you want?

You ask about wet sanding, filling the pores and sealing the grain. I answer with WHY?
WHY do you need to wet sand? Are you trying to get a super smooth finish?
WHY do you need to fill the grain? Are you applying a finish the will cure on the surface?
You question about sanding, filling and sealing will be answered by the first set of questions.

First off you are working on a M14 stock. It is a military stock. Do you plan to sell this stock?
If you plan to sell it, What would the buyer want?
I would say that your best finish would be a military finish. One that would look close to what it would have looked like it did when it was used by the military.
Here is another question. Are there any military markings on the stock? If so, your stock could be worth more with the markings.

Here is a Spanish FR8 Mauser. The shiny finish is wrong for this rifle. It should have a matt oil finish. Someone put the finish on the stock without taking the rifle out of the stock. :banghead:
The finish on the metal shows some wear so, the stock finish also needs to match the metal.





So here is what needs to be done.
#1 Remove the shinny finish.
#2 The stock does not need to be pretty.
#3 You don't want the stock to look like it was just refinished.
#4 Sanding will remove the aged look of the wood. So no sanding.
#5 The grain will need to be closed, some what.
Now to put the plan in action.
#1 Strip the stock with a paint striper.
Stripped




I didn't want the stock to look like it had just been refinished.
So no sanding was done. What I did was Bone the stock.
Boning is done by rubing the stock with a hard smooth object to compress the wood grain. I use an Ash wood dowel for this. (pool cue)




I then did a hand rubed BLO finish, toped off with Tom's 1/3 Mix.
Tom's 1/3 Mix is a 3 in 1 wax and looks great on military stocks. It is a soft wax and will not give you that shiny finish.
http://www.thegunstockdoctor.com/
Now the rifle looks like it should. This finish took about 3 weeks to do.




So always have a plan of attack before you start. Know what you want and then do what it takes to get the look you want.
Ask questions. Take your time.

 

[Sam1911]

TMiller556,

What the Gunny just showed you in pictures are some of the things I was trying to explain in text through some of my PMs. Functional beauty. Restored, not "gussied up." Appropriate, not immaculate.

I've not personally "boned" a stock before, but I much prefer it to almost any application of sandpaper, though I will admit to using 220 and higher grits to smooth after steaming.

This should almost be a subtitle for our Gunsmithing forum:

#3 You don't want the stock to look like it was just refinished.

Beautiful work, Gunny -- just beautiful!

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Thanks Sam.
I've been at it for some time and have learned from many. I also had to learn a few things the hard way.:banghead:
Teaching stock work can be hard when the student is far away. It is sometimes hard to put things into text.
Here is a post I did at SRF about helping others and making friends.
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=114293

 

[TMiller556]

Ohhh I get it now. I feel bad now because Sam has been telling me this all along and I didn't really get it until now. Now I understand why people use so many different types of methods/steps, because the person wants a different appearance or maybe they don't need it for in the field, they just want it for show. So it can be glossy vs. satin, worn looking vs new looking, etc. So for the m14 stock I'm working on, I would personally want a military finish like you said. So basically I guess I would want to go with a non glossy finish, but a durable finish and non glossy wax to strengthen it and to give it the military look. And occasionally I hear certain terms that and I have no idea what they mean. For example, you mentioned, "compressing the grain" and I have no idea what that means. I also hear things such as "raising the grain" which I don't understand. I'm sure reading up on refinishing will help me out with that. I kind of jumped right into refinishing without doing much research about wood refinishing in general. I looked into different methods of stock refinishing without understanding the characteristics of wood and without understand what such words as "filling" and "sealing" actually mean and their purpose. One thing I am curious about is, when I first started on my stock, I brushed on mineral spirits very lightly (thin coats) to strip the old finish. I let it dry for maybe 5 to 10 minutes and then wiped it off with a rag. I saw some black stuff (which I guess was dirt) come off onto the rag. I repeated this process a couple of times until there was barely anything showing up on the rag. I didn't rinse the stock and went right to steaming about an hour later. I looked at one of the stickies on SRF and saw that what I was doing was wrong. But could it have been because of some kind of polyurethane finish where I needed a stripper specifically made to remove it? How can I identify some kind of hard-to-remove finish such as polyurethane? After reading the stickies, I found out that I should have applied more of the stripper onto the stock and waited about 30 minutes until it was able to do its job. Then after the old finish starts dripping off, keep on repeating the process until there's no more finish coming off. Then immediately rinse and dry. And the main reasons why I want to refinish is because I want to learn the art of it and maybe eventually pass on my skills just like you're doing. Also, when I eventually move out of NYC, I would love to be able to restore milsurp rifles. You've cleared up a lot of things, thank you

 

[Sam1911]

I feel bad now because Sam has been telling me this all along and I didn't really get it until now.

Do NOT feel bad. You're doing just fine, and being so attentive to everyone's advice is aking to giving a compliment to them. Lots of different goals, and several ways to achieve each goal.

Keep trying, keep experimenting and enjoy the journey.

 

[BrocLuno]

The only way to learn a skill set is by trying and doing. We can all tell you how to do it "our way" and it may work just fine? Or, it may not.

There is a lot of difference between trying to repair a Remington RKW high gloss finish and old BLO military finish. They take different techniques, tool and knowledge.

But, knowing how to do both well will get you a lot of useful information you can pass along and help you make a living in the meantime

 

[Fullboar1]

Hello GunnyUSMC from Australia
I am very impressed with your work and kudos for passing on your knowledge. What you should do is a book on stock repair and finishing (I would buy it).

 

[TMiller556]

Hello GunnyUSMC from Australia
I am very impressed with your work and kudos for passing on your knowledge. What you should do is a book on stock repair and finishing (I would buy it).

I would also

 

[Rancho Relaxo]

Bedding the stock while you are refinishing is a great way to go, and a good time to learn it.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I have been thinking about putting together a CD. But I'm much better at stock work then I am at making CDs.
But for now you can go to SRF and ckeck out the Stock Care & Replacement Stocks Reference Stickies.
http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=137
I have well over 20 How To topics there that will walk you through just about any repair and some finishes.
The topics are set up so that someone with basic skills can do good work.

TMiller556
You are on the right track. Keep asking questions, even the ones that you think are silly. Just don't throw out too many at one time.

"compressing the grain" Or BONING, This is just a way of making wood smooth without sanding. It is done by rubing the wood with a hard object but not with too much pressure. It got it's name due to it was done with bones.
I haven't gottrn around to writing a topic on it yet, but here is one where the guy uses it when making bows.

http://www.primitivearcher.com/articles/boning.html

 

[Sam1911]

BONING, This is just a way of making wood smooth without sanding. It is done by rubing the wood with a hard object but not with too much pressure. It got it's name due to it was done with bones.

I've used that extensively in wood-turning on a lathe. Produces impressive results. I'll have to try it out on a stationary object next time.

 

[BrocLuno]

As long as we are getting into the esoteric areas like boning, here are a couple more. You can do additional research on the 'Net. And, if you try them you can come back and ask questions about how we make them work

Flame Graining - that is, using a controlled heat source like a propane torch and playing it over the wood to bring out the features in the grain. This is an especially good technique for Birch which appears light colored and bland on first glance. Many birch pieces have pretty grain hidden in the wood. With the right technique, you can get fiddle-back, tiger stripe, and many other grain patterns to come out while darkening the wood without the need for stains or dyes. It's an old technique that stock makers used before modern stains were readily available. It takes practice and is one of the best reasons to play with old stocks. Once you get the hang of it, you will be surprised at what is hidden in that bland stock

Conversion Varnish - this is the factory applied hard finish used by some stock makers and most production cabinet shops. It's a bit costly to set-up and it is not cost effective for one stock, done one time. But, having a catalyzed hardening varnish available will let you make a finish like RKW that is nearly impervious to the elements. Yeah, it can be scratched and banged, but it's about as tough a wood finish as man has thought up yet. This is the basic technology behind Remingtons RKW and Brownings "diamond gloss" and those really high gloss Weatherby stocks from back in the 1970's. Gloss has gone out of favor for now as folks seem to be happier with matte or semi-gloss. Of course conversion varnish can be applied as either of these as well. And some modern factory finishes that look like rubbed oil are conversion varnish processes. It's a good one to know about, even if you don't ever use it

 

[TMiller556]

I've been reading and it all makes sense now. The reason why some people fill the pores and/or seal the grain is because of the different types of wood and finishes they want. So correct me if I'm wrong, but the main reasons for sealing the grain are:
-To reduce the amount of stain absorbed by the stock
-To prevent the stain and filler from bleeding onto the top finish.
I know there's more but I forgot
And filling the grain is used by some to give the stock a smoother finish, mainly if they are working on a open pored wood. So basically it comes down to personal preference. And Sam, I think I'm going to add the stain because the blotch that was left by whatever chemical spilled on it is getting on my nerves. :banghead: after the stain dries, i'll add a couple more coats of finish and eventually use some 0000 steel wool to smooth it. Then I'll add some wax and see how it looks. If I want a military finish, does sound like a good idea? I know that they used BLO but I still have tung oil left. I don't really want anything too glossy, but maybe on my next stock I will try something different.

 

[BrocLuno]

You have the gist of it. Filling and sealing the grain are options depending on how you want the final job to look. Once you have a few of these stock jobs under your belt, you'll be able to envision the final "look & feel" and you'll be working toward a planned outcome. Right now, you are learning what does what.

Also, some woods "blotch up" when staining, so you need to use a pre-stain (actually a semi-sealer) to stop the blotchy-ness. In the old day, stock makers would use flame graining to get a good appearance before the first coat of anything, and then it was all clear hand rubbed (or as close as they could get, which was usually a reddish yellow oil). Tung oil is fine. It's in the class of "Drying Oils" which is what you want to work with. Think an oil that is actually catalyzed by exposure to oxygen. Motor oil would be a good example of a "non-drying" oil.

About that chemical stripe - it's actually a chemical bleaching that has occurred. And bleaching wood is something we have not discussed up till now. But, it is a common practice in refinishing fine woods. You often have to bleach a wood to get old iron stains out from some piece of hardware that rusted while in contact with the wood. The most common techniques involve oxalic acid. It's another area where you will have to do a bit more research

But, about that stripe area, You may want to try aniline dye (alcohol based) and see if you can get it to take just along the stripe? Is that area bare wood, or does it have anything on it?

 

[TMiller556]

Yeah I hear you, it all started to make sense once I read about it. And does walnut blotch up? I heard it is takes the stains evenly but I'm just making sure. So I wouldn't need to use a pre-stain since walnut is already likely to stain evenly? Isn't tung oil a semi-sealer? Most of the stripe isn't noticeable anymore after I sanded, but on one side of the stock it's definitely visible. The stripe was bare wood when I first started. It doesn't appear as bare wood now because of the sanding and the tung oil.

 

[Sam1911]

And Sam, I think I'm going to add the stain because the blotch that was left by whatever chemical spilled on it is getting on my nerves.

Yup that sounds like a plan. I'd definitely do that very carefully, with an artist's brush to paint in the stain exactly on the blotch, and choosing a stain that aims at leaving that blotch with the same tone as the wood around it (without stain on it).

If you stain the whole stock, you'll probably leve the blotch a little darker, but the wood around it will be darker too, so it will still be quite visible.

I'd expect to need to do a few passes on the blotch to blend it with the rest of the stock, and I'd probably use a gel stain as they're a little easier to keep focused. (Or analine dye as Bronc said, but for different reasons.)

 

[GunnyUSMC]

TMiller556
You say that you are using Tung Oil. Is it Pure Tung Oil (PTO)? Or is it Tung Oil Finish? A lot of people think that Formby's Tung Oil finish is Tung Oil, but it is not. It is a weaping varnish and will give the look of an oil finish. It is great for indors but is not the best for stock finishes.
Here is a link to Real Mil Paint. They have some of the best PTO.
http://www.realmilkpaint.com/oil.html

Us military stocks were finished with Leen seed oil. BLO is close to what the military used up to 1941. During WWII a problem came up. Stocks were molding in the tropics. In 1942 the US started using PTO on all wood stocks, leaving the factory, because it prevented molding better the Leen seed oil. The problem never really went away due to the military having so much of the old oil in their supply system.

 

[TMiller556]

Thanks Sam, I would have stained the whole stock. And I'm using Formby's, I didn't know it was a varnish until I got home and looked at the bottle. And thanks for the link, next time I'm going to pick up PTO instead or maybe try BLO. If I want to stain the discolored chemical spots on the butt of the stock, will I be able to use Minwax Wood Finish to match the rest of the wood? I've already applied about 5 coats of Formby's and I know that the Minwax is an oil based stain, so will they work together? I've heard oils work with other oils but I'm not 100 percent sure. Will the stain be able to penetrate the wood? Doesn't the tung oil prevent the wood from absorbing the stain?

 

[GunnyUSMC]

The Formby's will block oil base stains.
You will need to use an alcohol base dye.

 

[Sam1911]

The stain absorption will certainly be slowed/hindered by having finish already in the wood. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Stain soaking into bare wood can look terrible. Blotchy as Bronc said, "muddy" is my term for it. Some of my instructors just said it looked "dead." The grain pattern is muted and the fire or shimmer of the figure is simply killed by the pigment sucking down into the fibers in a very uneven way.

The great finishers apply stains over clear/natural sealers, pre-stains (or whatever they get called) as that changes the overall color without muffing the figure and "depth" beneath.

(As a huge "aside:" If you've ever taken a close look at raw, unfinished oak, and ever gotten the chance to look at antique oak furniture or woodwork -- and then look at the stained oak furniture that was so popular in the 80s, you can see some of the worst offenses. All these rustic furniture companies did it, and those "unfinished furniture" places promote it -- just swab on Minwax stain and you'll have beautiful furniture! ... except what happens is instead of getting a golden honey toned product with amazing depth and "flame," you end up with the summer and winter growth rings alternately sucking down, and refusing, the stain, which leaves your oak stained to look like zebrano or zircote -- and muddy at that -- instead of what it could look like. So many folks did that, and bought that stuff, that people think that's what it's supposed to look like...)

The oil stains will not absorb well. You may get the results you want, but it may take many passes. I agree that the dyes will work faster and quite probably better. Go light, be patient, much easier to darken things with a little more work than it is to strip it all off and start over cause you went too heavy.

 

[TMiller556]

I just tried to stain the spots with light coats and I don't see any difference yet but I'll keep on staining the spots and maybe I'll start to see the spots blend in with the rest of the stock. Are there any alcohol based dyes that you recommend?

 

[Elkins45]

Just to throw in a dissenting opinion: if you are doing this for paying clients you will likely find that many of them will want a "gussied up" finish on their guns.

I think that will be the case even if you try to convince them otherwise. A lot of people just like that shiny look because they equate it with new or "fixed good as new". You can explain about making guns period correct and appropriately finished but a lot of folks just won't be interested. If you spend a lot of time at gunshows you'll meet a lot of these people.

 

[TMiller556]

Elkins I know what you mean. Most of the stock refinishing videos I've seen are really glossy finishes and stains that make the stock look unnatural. Here is the stock now, it's coming out my glossy than I thought it would. I guess it's because the tung oil I'm using says high gloss on the bottle, which I didn't even notice until after I bought it. Why does the butt and the front of the foreend look darker than the rest of the stock? Is this natural? Or could it be because I didn't remove all of the old finish from these parts? Is it starting to look better at all? By the way, the white specks came from something that I laid the stock down on, which I shouldn't have done. It came off with some steel wool.