Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

2008 Real Id. Scary And Coming

Discussion in 'Legal' started by runswithscissors, May 31, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. runswithscissors

    runswithscissors Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Messages:
    81
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
  2. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    11,109
    Uh...

    Ok. Shiny side OUT with the foil.

    I'm not saying that such things as this might not be down the road, or made easier by the establishment of this ID system, but they are most assuredly NOT part and parcel of it. All this does is standardize the information contained on drivers licenses and link databases (which, not incidentally, are already linked).

    Does this have privacy and libertarian ramifications? Yes. But Let's not overtstate the case.

    Mike
     
  3. Joejojoba111

    Joejojoba111 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,056
    But isn't this the same bill that gives the Homeland Security Director the power to over-rule any, ANY law he desires, gives him complete oversight over - himself, and has written in it the clause that the bill is absolutely above judicial review (a section titled in caps NO JUDICIAL REVIEW)?

    And then combine that with a cute little internal passport, yea MAYBE someday in the FAR FAR future it will be something to express concern about... Come on this is absolute BS it's illegal its wrong is just stupidly horribly scary.
     
  4. runswithscissors

    runswithscissors Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Messages:
    81
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Hmmm

    Coronach,

    I pray you are right. :scrutiny:

    Aren't both sides of foil shiny :p

    Nice comment though ;)
     
  5. Balog

    Balog Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,955
    Location:
    Directly below date registered
    Uhh, it's a nationally uniform, machine readable ID card. It's going to be linked to the right to drive legally, fly legally, and of course buy a gun legally. And that's just the purposes they acknowledge. Lord knows what they'll end up doing with it. Call me crazy but that seems like a pretty damn big deal to me.
     
  6. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    19,604
    Location:
    Alma Illinois
    That's right, the databases are already linked. I can get complete drivers license info from all 50 states and the 4 territories and all Canadian provinces from my squad car or portable radio..usually in seconds.

    In fact, I usually don't care what the laminated card the driver hands me says..the info I get from the computer is what I go by. I would estimate that about 30% of the drivers I have contact with, don't actually have their DL in their possession. It was one of the first things that really surprised me when I became a peace officer..the number of people that don't feel bad at all about driving without their license on their person. Yes, I could write tickets for that, but it would overwhelm the system and around here the judges normally dismiss them if they show up in court with their license on them. So if a driver doesn't have his/her DL on their person, I get standard idnetifiers, first name, last name MI, race and DOB and the computer tells me if they have a valid license. If it matches up with the registration of the car, insurance card etc. and if the person matches the physical description of the licensee, I'm usually pretty certain they are who they say they are.

    Like Coronach said, from what I can tell all this does is make sure that the information that goes into the sytem is verified better then it is. You see it's not that big a deal for al-queda or anyone else to get ahold of the technology to make a laminated card, even if it has fancy holograms or other security measures. It's what gets entered into the database that counts.

    Jeff
     
  7. runswithscissors

    runswithscissors Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2004
    Messages:
    81
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    What happens when virtually all purchases must be made with this ID? Americans are the ultimate consumers. How much more control will the government gain by controlling what we are able to buy and in what quantities. I'm sure no one thought guns would be banned...DC, Commufornia etc.

    I'm not suggesting that this will be the fall of American civilization, I'm just saying that if this ID is not kept in check, it could be used for ill.
     
  8. Sensenbrenner also wants a law that would make it illegal for any US citizen to not narc on someone they see who might be doing something suspicious.

    All US citizens would be required to spy on each other, to report anything and everything they see that looks out of the ordinary.

    No more of this "It's none of my business" stuff from anyone.
     
  9. rick_reno

    rick_reno member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,027
    I hope they give us a little bit of the secure Eeprom on the card so we can download cash to it. Ideally I'd like to have to carry just one card - I bicycle a lot and don't have a lot of room for additonal cards.
     
  10. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    19,604
    Location:
    Alma Illinois
    runswithscissors said;
    Well considering it's a law everywhere that I can think of that you have to have this ID on your person to drive and a very significant number of people won't do that now, how much luck do you think they'll have getting people to make all their purchases with it. We already have a large underground economy in every prohibited substance in this country. All something like that would do would be to further organized crime and bring the all powerful government down faster.

    And I can tell you that if the number of young people I meet who don't have their DL on their person is any indication, the public school system isn't close to making them all compliant little serfs....

    Jeff
     
  11. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    11,109
    Also, requiring all mercantile transactions to be associated with an ID would require a law to that effect.

    Mike
     
  12. Balog

    Balog Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,955
    Location:
    Directly below date registered
    I don't imagine it'd be required for all transactions. Just ones already requiring ID. Alcohol, tobacco, firearms, ammo etc. Since it's machine readable it'd be easy to go from "showing" your ID to "swiping" your ID.

    Would it spark an underground economy? Sure would. And if there's one thing Prohibition and the "War on Drugs" has taught us it's that nothing gives the .gov more authority to destroy the Constitution than a law designed to promote massive non-compliance.
     
  13. spartacus2002

    spartacus2002 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    1,578
    Location:
    St. Pete, FL


    Or, simply, a rule promulgated by an administrative agency. But that will never happen, because we don't suffer from swarms of bureaucrats churning out tens of thousands of rules every year :rolleyes:
     
  14. aquapong

    aquapong Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2003
    Messages:
    329
    Location:
    Phx, AZ
    Since it's machine readable it'd be easy to go from "showing" your ID to "swiping" your ID.

    And if it's swiped, there's a computer record of it. The national database got queried for a Jim Smith 123 Main St Anywhere PA 17777 from Joe Bob's Cigar Shop @ 1235 on 5/31/09 and again from Shaggy Yeti Gunshop @ 1421 on 5/31/09. They may or may not transmit what you bought, but it wouldn't be hard for the system to flag certain types of vendors.
     
  15. dave3006

    dave3006 member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2003
    Messages:
    898
    The ultimate end will be to require all who buy or sell to receive a mark on their hand or forehead.

    Read Revelations 13 about the mark of the beast. Of course, the real ID is not "the mark". But, it sure takes us closer.
     
  16. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    1,929
    Location:
    Indiana
    However bad you think this could be, however thick your tinfoli may be, get ready, it's going to be a LOT worse.

    Time for me to drag the fake ID's back out...
     
  17. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    19,604
    Location:
    Alma Illinois
    Fake ID?? That might be good for buying alcohol if you're underage, getting into a R or NC-17 movie or renting a video game or DVD, but it won't stand up in any dealings with the government. Like I said in my earlier post, we already check things through LEADS and NCIC. Unless you can get your fake ID info into the computer system, it will come back as not on file, which is a sure flag that something is wrong.

    You need to roll back the clock about 30 years or so, back to the time when those records were on microfiche and the police could only do a manual lookup of drivers licsenes from their home state. The thing you're so concered about has been here for decades.

    Jeff
     
  18. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2004
    Messages:
    4,938
    Location:
    The Copper Country, Michigan
    Sorry, I can't read that and take them seriously. Three years, and we are somehow going to have a chip in our licenses that tells any officer anything we've ever bought?

    Sometimes, I think that not everytime someone proposes something, they do it with the hidden intention of enslaving the Americans.
     
  19. Waitone

    Waitone Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    5,406
    Location:
    The Land of Broccoli and Fingernails
    Don't like RealID because of what might happen at some point in the future?

    OK, What would you suggest to deal with the problem of criminal aliens getting DL's in certain irresponsible states whose governors flip the bird to the US Attorney General and refuse to fix a problem that has killed people in the past and will get people killed in the future? What would you suggest?

    In my pathetic world you deal with the most dangerous problem first then deal with the next threat.
     
  20. Joejojoba111

    Joejojoba111 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,056
    Look at what else is in the legislation

    Umm, for all those that think it's probably just harmless legislation... You might have a valid point IF there wasn't such scary stuff also in it. SCARY STUFF.

    OK so internal passports are not a big deal? What about when you combine them with giving the homeland security director DICTATOR POWERS. HONEST TO GOD LEGITIMATE DICTATOR POWERS.

    And then look at it and tell me the concurrent internal passport is no big deal. It's the freaking icing on the facist cake.
     
  21. Vodka7

    Vodka7 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    140
    Location:
    South Philly
    Jeff:

    This is a professional question that you don't have to answer publically, but I would like you to think about it. When a driver's license is presented to you at a traffic stop, do you run it by name/DOB, or by DL#? If you do not check by DL#, is that verified at any time?

    I ask you this because anyone can find out quite a lot about another person on the Internet. You, for example, were born in 1956, live at house number 1003, and the first three digits of your phone number are 547.

    But let's say I don't want to impersonate you: anyone will do. Let's say I'm a terrorist. I'm arab, average height, average weight. Well, pretty much all I have to do is flip the phone book open to the M's, E's, or A's, and I'm all set. I can pick pretty much anyone at random--then link it up to the internet to make sure that person is roughly my age, memorize their details, and slap it on a fake ID. If the DL# is not verified, then the officer will see that I, like the person on my ID, am an Arab, average height, average weight, brown hair, brown eyes, born on the correct date... Ok sir you're good to go.

    This works better in metro areas, where I have a greater chance of finding someone with my real name. I can drive my own car, and the registration and insurance will match my fake ID.

    But from what you're saying, I don't even need to bother making a fake ID. I can just tell you the information I've looked up on the internet and you'll "verify" it on your computer. After all, I can't be expected to remember my own driver's license can I?

    The only potential weakness would be if SSNs are linked up with DLs, but even those can be purchased on the internet if one knows where to look.
     
  22. thereisnospoon

    thereisnospoon Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    896
    Location:
    At my house
    Hoo, Hoo

    My tinfoil Hat is red hot with anticipation of the Real I.D. Act.

    Like all Legislation, this particular Bill/Law is suppose to "fix" a problem with Illegal immigration, but we seemed to only be able to do that by trampling the rights and privacy of the people who are rightful citizens of this Country. :cuss:

    Why is it we can't just simply stop the flow at the source then round em up, etc. rather than waisting time and money on a program ONLY law abiding citizens will adhere to? Someone who is here illegally has already proven they will break the law, DUH?

    MORE government is never the answer! NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER. All that get us is more waste and beurocracy, such as the Department of Real I.D.

    Hey, wait a minute :scrutiny: ...Maybe they'll make me the Cabinet Minister for the Department of I.D. Nevermind....
     
  23. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    19,604
    Location:
    Alma Illinois
    Joejojoba111,
    Please post the text of the law that requires internal passports and mandates you get permission to travel along with a link to the law on an official site.

    I'd also like to see the same information about the part of the law that makes the Secretary of Homeland Security a dictator. I can't see those power happy idiots in congress cedeing any power to anyone....

    Vodka7,
    You have identifed the weakness in the the system. Yes there have been cases of people using other peoples information to avoid arrest on warrants or even get traffic tickets written in someone elses name. Sometimes the computer burps. Last Thursday night I arrested a man known to me for DUI. He didn't have his license on his person because the court still had it after the DUI I wrote him back in March. I needed his file number to complete the paper work. But every way we ran him through the computer brought up his twin brother's information. The sheriff's dispatcher even called the state police district headquarters and their TCs got the same results. I ended up driving the 10 miles from the jail to my office to pick up his file from the first DUI, just to get his DL number to complete the paperwork.

    If the officer has an MDC in his car he can check the file number against what's on the fake ID. He can also run the DL by file number, and you'd be surprised at how many people have been able to rattle off their DL number like they can their SSN.

    No system is perfect or foolproof. I do think that by standardizing what identification is required to get an official ID that will match up in the database is a good thing.

    I also think that they went to far with the provisions that require people to verify the validity of utility bills etc. when applying for a license. Congress is stupid enough to think that that would actually be workable? I hope not, more likely no one, not even the sponsor of the bill actually ever read it. I'm sure this bill was produced in the private sector by a think tank and Sensenbrenner just introduced it. It's going to be interersting to see how fast it's amended once the utlity companies and other people in the private sector who are charged with verifying this information have to start dealing with it. I wonder how many of the congresscritters who voted for it will own up to never reading it?

    Jeff
     
  24. Joejojoba111

    Joejojoba111 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,056
    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.00418:

    If some people find the navigation confusing, here's the good stuff, out of sec. 102.

    " `(1) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Secretary of Homeland Security shall have the authority to waive, and shall waive, all laws such Secretary, in such Secretary's sole discretion, determines necessary to ensure expeditious construction of the barriers and roads under this section.

    `(2) NO JUDICIAL REVIEW- Notwithstanding any other provision of law (statutory or nonstatutory), no court, administrative agency, or other entity shall have jurisdiction--"

    Connect the dots - Secretary of Homeland Security can waive ***ANY LAW*** he determines necessary, based on his ***SOLE DISCRETION*** and this is absolute, as no authority known to man shall have jurisdiction to say otherwise ***NO JUDICIAL REVIEW***

    Does that look remotely like any legislation ever passed before? What the hell is that? Is it even legal to deny the courts judicial review? Is it even legal to waive any law? Does it matter, if he can waive any law? This is NOT NORMAL. THIS IS VERY ABNORMAL, EXTREMELY DISCONCERTING.



    Also, just for fun, here's the bit where they decide it's actually OK to use SSNs as ID
    "Proof of the person's social security account number or verification that the person is not eligible for a social security account number".


    And if you can't enter an airport, let alone board a plane, without one of there I don't know what else to call them.
     
  25. Joejojoba111

    Joejojoba111 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,056
    "SHORT TITLE.—This Act may be cited as the ‘‘Intelligence
    Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004’’."

    "SEC. 7214. PROHIBITION OF THE DISPLAY OF SOCIAL SECURITY
    ACCOUNT NUMBERS ON DRIVER’S LICENSES OR MOTOR
    VEHICLE REGISTRATIONS.
    (a) IN GENERAL.—Section 205(c)(2)(C)(vi) of the Social Security
    Act (42 U.S.C. 405(c)(2)(C)(vi)) is amended—
    (1) by inserting ‘‘(I)’’ after ‘‘(vi)’’; and
    (2) by adding at the end the following new subclause:
    ‘‘(II) Any State or political subdivision thereof (and any person
    acting as an agent of such an agency or instrumentality), in the
    administration of any driver’s license or motor vehicle registration
    law within its jurisdiction, may not display a social security account
    number issued by the Commissioner of Social Security (or any
    derivative of such number) on any driver’s license, motor vehicle
    registration, or personal identification card (as defined in section
    7212(a)(2) of the 9/11 Commission Implementation Act of 2004),
    or include, on any such license, registration, or personal identification
    card, a magnetic strip, bar code, or other means of communication
    which conveys such number (or derivative thereof).’’.




    "SEC. 7212. DRIVER’S LICENSES AND PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION
    CARDS.
    (a) DEFINITIONS.—In this section:
    (1) DRIVER’S LICENSE.—The term ‘‘driver’s license’’ means
    a motor vehicle operator’s license as defined in section 30301(5)
    of title 49, United States Code."




    "H.R.418
    REAL ID Act of 2005 (Introduced in House)

    SEC. 207. REPEAL.

    Section 7212 of the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-458) is repealed."





    ...SOOOO if a driver's license no longer has anything to do with operating a vehicle, this does not arouse ANY SUSPICION?!>!>!>???

    PEOPLE OPEN YOUR EYES THIS IS HONEST TO GOD REAL THEY'RE IMPLEMENTING ACTUAL INERNAL PASSPORTS THEY'RE NOT DRIVER'S LICENSES THIS IS REAL THIS IS REAL THIS IS REAL
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page