204 OCW test

[KyleWoods35]

Well I took advantage of yesterday's unseasonably warm weather, it was 75 here in western PA! I made up some loads for my 204 using H4895 and 39 gr SBK's. Needless to say I am very please with my results. I am thinking of using 26.1 gr as my load, not only did it shoot very well but 26.0 and 26.2 have almost identical POI's. I also noticed that there really isn't much POI change from my lowest load to my highest. If you guys have any opinions on what you would pick for your OCW load feel free to chime in, I'm open to suggestions. I am planning on loading 1 round of 26, 26.1, and 26.2 and shooting at my max range I plan to shoot groundhogs at which will probably be 400 yards (had a 370 yard kill last year with 32 gr vmax factory ammo). I expect MOA results with those three shots. Here are a few pics of my setup and targets:

Savage Model 12 FCV
Mueller Eraticator 8.5-25x50


Top left target was my sighters with 24.1, 24.6, and 25.1 gr of H4895. I also used these to look for pressure signs.


Top left I used 4 shots of 32 gr Hornady factory ammo to foul the barrel.


Again, any input is welcome. I am new to reloading and am willing to learn from guys that have been reloading longer than I've been alive.

 

[Bart B.]

As there's typically a 3X to 4X spread in 3-shot group size across several with the same load, those are all equal. At least a 2% change in charge weight is needed to see any significant difference in accuracy for a given load. At least 10 shots per load is needed for meaningfull results.

If those groups were fired with the same sight settings and point of aim, the fact that their centers are not in the same place shows something is not repeatable.

 

[Laphroaig]

You seem to be on the right track. Your rifle and load is very accurate and any of those loads will be fine.

At least 10 shots per load is needed for meaningfull results.

Move your POI about 3/4 Min. left, then use the other 7 rounds for head shots on groundhogs.

 

[horsey300]

I see it as 26- 26.3 being equal so load up 10-20or30, adjust your sight to the left, then fire all of them in one group with any charge between 26-26.3 and see how THAT does, I don't mind using 3 shot sight in groups or 3 shots working up a load looking for potential, but after finding that potential but before I decide I can swat flies at 500 yds, I test a larger batch to make sure I didn't miss anything.

 

[KyleWoods35]

I will probably try horsey's suggestion and load up 5 round at each charge and test them at 100 yards. This probably won't be done till April or May because it looks like winter has settled back in here in PA.

If anyone else has any input I'm all ears.

 

[horsey300]

I will probably try horsey's suggestion and load up 5 round at each charge and test them at 100 yards. This probably won't be done till April or May because it looks like winter has settled back in here in PA.

If anyone else has any input I'm all ears.

Not exactly what I was getting at.......I'm saying that from 26-26.3 you're peeing in the wind trying to decide which one is best, so pick a charge weight (or 2 if you want and excuse to shoot more) I.e. 26.2 allowing variances up to 26.3 and down to 26.1 and load 10-30 rds of that weight to test into the same group. My rifles usually need more than a .2 or .3 gr spread to show a difference.

 

[KyleWoods35]

Not exactly what I was getting at.......I'm saying that from 26-26.3 you're peeing in the wind trying to decide which one is best, so pick a charge weight (or 2 if you want and excuse to shoot more) I.e. 26.2 allowing variances up to 26.3 and down to 26.1 and load 10-30 rds of that weight to test into the same group. My rifles usually need more than a .2 or .3 gr spread to show a difference.

Oh, that's my bad. I see what you're saying now, thank you for the suggestion, I will give it a try this spring.

As there's typically a 3X to 4X spread in 3-shot group size across several with the same load, those are all equal.

I'm kind of confused by what you're saying. So do you mean I should have seen a lot larger spread in my group sizes from 25.6 to 26.6?

I plan on shooting some 10-20 shot groups this spring/early summer with some loads in the 26.0 to 26.3 range, because the POI of those charges seems to be in the same spot.

At least a 2% change in charge weight is needed to see any significant difference in accuracy for a given load. At least 10 shots per load is needed for meaningfull results.

I had a 4% change in charge weight from 25.6 to 26.6.

If those groups were fired with the same sight settings and point of aim, the fact that their centers are not in the same place shows something is not repeatable.

While the POI from 25.6 to 26.6 isn't EXACTLY the same, I'd say it's pretty darn close. A whole heck of a lot closer than I had expected out of a factory gun.

I don't mean to come off as argumentative, looking at your experience you obviously know what you're talking about, I'm just a little confused on some things you're saying.

 

[horsey300]

I'm kind of confused by what you're saying. So do you mean I should have seen a lot larger spread in my group sizes from 25.6 to 26.6?

I plan on shooting some 10-20 shot groups this spring/early summer with some loads in the 26.0 to 26.3 range, because the POI of those charges seems to be in the same spot.


I had a 4% change in charge weight from 25.6 to 26.6.



While the POI from 25.6 to 26.6 isn't EXACTLY the same, I'd say it's pretty darn close. A whole heck of a lot closer than I had expected out of a factory gun.

I don't mean to come off as argumentative, looking at your experience you obviously know what you're talking about, I'm just a little confused on some things you're saying.

I think Bart and I are trying to tell you the same thing in different ways for the most part, less focus on each individual .1 charge, do work ups in .3-.5 gr increments to really find any difference in usable data, and shoot more shots per group because a 3 shot group measuring .3" one day may open up to .9-1.20" (3x to 4x) any other given day so more shots per group will give a better data set to move forward with.

 

[KyleWoods35]

I think Bart and I are trying to tell you the same thing in different ways for the most part, less focus on each individual .1 charge, do work ups in .3-.5 gr increments to really find any difference in usable data, and shoot more shots per group because a 3 shot group measuring .3" one day may open up to .9-1.20" (3x to 4x) any other given day so more shots per group will give a better data set to move forward with.

Ok that makes sense. Sorry for my confusion guys. And thanks for the input

 

[Laphroaig]

I don't get it. Are you trying to get a statistic to say how accurate your rifle is or get the most accurate load with the bullet/powder combination you have chosen for hunting? Throw in the 26.0 charge wt. and you have 12 shots that essentially blow out the right side of one of those 1" squares. What is there to gain shooting 10, 20, or more shots to develop a load that you already know is accurate. It is good practice though.

Maybe another bullet or powder would do incrementally better?

Not many woodchucks in my neck of the woods. I can't believe that the coyotes got them all.

 

[horsey300]

I don't get it. Are you trying to get a statistic to say how accurate your rifle is or get the most accurate load with the bullet/powder combination you have chosen for hunting? Throw in the 26.0 charge wt. and you have 12 shots that essentially blow out the right side of one of those 1" squares. What is there to gain shooting 10, 20, or more shots to develop a load that you already know is accurate. It is good practice though.

Maybe another bullet or powder would do incrementally better?

Not many woodchucks in my neck of the woods. I can't believe that the coyotes got them all.

What if the group from 26.2 (26.1-26.3 9 shots) is the best you can do with that load and what if the group from 25.8 is the worst that load will do? How will you ever know? If the 26.2 is "good 'nuff" then that's fine too but a good amount of lead downrange will stop the "what ifs" that are known to hit before squeezing the trigger when you're looking at smaller targets a ways out there, my prairie dogs don't get as big as woodchucks or groundhogs do and we take those shots out to 500 yds, so KNOWING how much spread you're dealing with counts for a LOT.

 

[Bart B.]

Look at all the 5-shot groups shot by any one competitor in this benchrest match. Each persons groups span a wide range. Each group's center is not the same distance and direction from the aiming point

http://azbrs.com/downloads/results/2016-Cactus_Classic-Light_Varmint_100yd.pdf

Look at each match listed in the following link. Pick a competitor in a grand aggregate by name then check his group's sizes across all matches. Note the big spread across his groups from smallest to largest. Note also his smallest group is not always the first one shot for each match; that's not shown but it happens. Groups are listed in MOA units. Most interesting is the spread from his smallest to largest single group.

http://azbrs.com/matches/2016-lv-hv-cactus-classic/

Or, shoot twenty 5- or 3-shot groups yourself. Plot the center and size of each. Make your own comparison.

A good learning process is to throw darts at a large sheet of paper with an aiming mark in its center. Throw the same dart 3 times marking each hole a black dot. Then 3 more times marking those green. Next 3 are marked blue. 3 more orange. Through all the colors of the rainbow. When you're tired of throwing, measure the size of each color's groups and plot their centers. After several dozen colors are used, the composite of all dot colors no longer grows in size any significant amount. That's how accurate your dart throwing is. Note where all the 3-dot group centers are.

Firearms are no different. Here's ninety 3-shot groups with a composite of about 0.32 MOA mean radius, .65 MOA average, 1.7 MOA extreme spread. Which 3-shot groups comprised this 270-shot group of 7.62 NATO M118 match ammo?

 

[Bart B.]

Here's a computer generated 250-shot group

 

[KyleWoods35]

Thank you for the insight Bart, I hadn't realized the group sizes could vary so much. This makes me want to go out and shoot maybe 10 5-shot groups with 26.1 gr and see how my groups vary.

 

[Bart B.]

shoot all those 5-shot groups on a backer target to show where all 50 went.