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2100 lbs Safe safe on my floor?

Discussion in 'Shooting Gear and Storage' started by grmnrkt, Dec 4, 2012.

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  1. grmnrkt

    grmnrkt Member

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    I'm hoping that CB900F will chime in here since he's a Graffunder dealer.

    I just bought a B7240 from Graffunder direct, there are no dealers in my area. I'm going to have it shipped to a local safe dealer who will move it for me. My question is this, will the 2100 lbs weight be supported by my floor? I'm sure you have other customers w/ this safe with similar floor constructions. What was their solution to the weight problem posed by these safes? How the heck to people handle heavier safes in their homes? I don't have room on my garage (otherwise I would have sprung for the C rate).

    I will locate it over (3) 2x10 joists 16" on center, the home was built in 1952 and the subfloor is 45° laid 1x4 vs. plywood. I will be locating this safe in a corner of a room which is adjacent to the main steel I-beam and the other wall is an exterior wall. I was having trouble deciding between the C7240 and the B7240 but went w/ the B rate b/c I was concerned about weight and I can't get the safe into the basement so the main floor is the only option. Talked to my architect who said to put a beam under the floor to shorten the span but this will look funny in the end of my finished basement, but if it is needed I will do it.

    I appreciate input from any of the security experts on this forum.

    Regards,

    Brian
     
  2. Ironclad

    Ironclad Member

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    I would probably listen to your architect over people on an online gun forum. He went to school for a long time to be able to make decisions like this.
     
  3. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    ^^ You bought a 2100-lb safe, then asked this question?
     
  4. AABEN

    AABEN Member

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    That is empty weight! What will it weight after it is full? YES support your floor!!
     
  5. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf member

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    A hole in your floor will look funnier than a post. probably
     
  6. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Agree with architect. Beef it up.
    When I was planning for my new house, I was leaning towards a crawl space and reinforced floor under the safe. But I ended up on a slab so it became moot.
     
  7. grmnrkt

    grmnrkt Member

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    I'm an engineer and ran calculations. I think it will work w/o the beam. The architect just plugs numbers into a program which spits out results. He told me he didn't know the safety factors involved. When he told me his numbers, vs. what I calculated I figure about a 4x safety factor. Depending on the wood, Each of those beams should hold ~1200lbs. Thats' beam load in middle, not shear of the beam itself. Location has a lot to do with how the forces are exerted. That said, I trust the guy, I just want an opinion from somebody who sells/install them if they've ever encountered problems from customers years down the road. This is one of their "lighter" rated safes. It's just big. My dad has a FT. Knox same size and said his floor is starting to sag, but I don't like where he located it in the room and that has a lot to do with it. Still, my safe is 700# more than his weighs.

    I've done a lot of research before making this decision, the hardest part about this decision is the limited info on supporting gun safes vs. what floors are designed to handle. Most people are worried about 6-700lbs safes. This is three times that weight. I'm not the only person with one of these and I would like to know if everybody shortens their joist span or not?
     
  8. Teachu2

    Teachu2 Member

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    I'd put a steel post (or 4) in the basement and frame a closet with it (them). That would give me peace of mind. That's a lot of weight, and it will be there a long time (hopefully!). If it damages the house.....
     
  9. Kingcreek

    Kingcreek Member

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    Is it possible to add joists ie double them up under the safe?
    I put a steel cross beam and support posts under my safe because of an incident near here where a gentleman had a fire and his safe went through the floor and laid in a flooded basement for 3 days. The fireproof safe protected his nice collection but the water and sub freezing temps ruined them.
     
  10. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    I've had at least that much weight and more on various common 1st and 2nd floor home floors with no issues. We're talking for 2 years in each of two homes.

    But I put it in the corner of an outside load bearing wall.
     
  11. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd Member

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    I would without question (based upon your description) add support but also be very mindful of the travel from delivery vehicle to the final site. You're going to no doubt be adding significant weight after the first ton and in a relatively small area to boot.
    A monster like this - I'd be certain to view the movers bond and insurance beforehand.
     
  12. Averageman

    Averageman Member

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    Outside load bearing wall and four sissor jacks under it on the first floor, if you do not have a concrete foundation.
    I wouldnt consider it on a second floor.
    Just my non engineering opinion based on lifes experiances.
     
  13. coolluke01

    coolluke01 Member

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    Spreading the weight across more joists would help if you feel you are close to the limit.

    Most formulas will not be for point loading but for deflection of 1/4" in the middle of the span. You don't want a floor to bounce when you walk on it or deflect when you load it. It takes a great deal more wood to resist deflection in the middle of a span than a point load near the I beam. You are really only talking about shear strength of the 2x10's for the most part if it's that close to the beam. Being close to the outside wall makes no differences as the 2x10's are running parallel with the basement wall, unless one of them is sitting on the top of the wall. But that's not likely. Being close to the outside wall will take the strength of the steel beam out of the equation though.

    If you feel you would like more shear strength, then add 2x10's on top of the steel beam. They don't have to be very long, no need to even stick out past the edge of the safe. Just scab them along side the other joists by glueing and screwing and have them hang evenly over the steel beam on each side. This will reinforce the point load where you need it by increasing the shear strength of the 2x10's.

    You could always head off the 3 joists and set the end of the header on the outside wall, then hang the other end on a doubled or tripled up full length joist. This would keep you from having beams exposed below the ceiling.

    Please post pictures if it falls though. ;) lol
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012
  14. idoono

    idoono Member

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    You could sister additional joist with the three under the safe. Glue and screw them together, reinforce your "X" braces between the joists and you should be good. However like others have said I would run this by a structural engineer (not an architect), and have him run the numbers.

    Idoono
     
  15. Arp32

    Arp32 Member

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    What kind of span are you talking about?
     
  16. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    I wouldn't do it without reinforcement.

    We max our residential structures at 1,500 pounds, and you ought to see some of the floors move under that weight. Not only will you want to reinforce the area that the safe will sit, but you'll also want to reinforce the floor along the entire route the safe will travel.
     
  17. grmnrkt

    grmnrkt Member

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    a1bdj, I was hoping to hear from you too. By reinforcement of the route I assume you mean laying down plates on the floor to dissipate the load along the route? I'm using Cleveland Safe to move the safe, they've been at it a while so I hope they know what they are doing. I'm surprised this isn't asked more often when people are looking at larger safes. There isn't a lot of info I could find on this pertaining to safes. Aquariums and water beds yes, but they are spread over a much larger area. I wanted to get the most security I could afford w/o destroying the house but I think this safe was the best I could do in the size I wanted w/o risking the structural integrity of my home. Based on your your recomendatiuons, an Amsec BF7240 is all you would recommend to a residential client as far as size goes? I even considered a smaller C rate but the weight was still above the one I'm getting. Am I buying too much safe? (little late now).... What do you tell a guy who want a TL30 in their bedroom? Do all customers put them in their garages?

    I used the following equation in my calculations for any structural engineers/architects can tell me if this is how they would do it.
    http://www.ehow.com/how_7485788_calculate-floor-load-capacity.html
    This should be max load w/o a safety factor. My calculations give me max load for the floor area in that room of 8939lbs with each beam carrying a max load of 1240lbs (in the middle). If I pick up three joists that should support the safe no problem especially since the force is more shear related than beam load deflection. Still, I don't know all the ins and outs of structural design, just the basics. Enough to get me into trouble. :banghead:

    The span, which I left out ( and is the most important factor) but somebody asked is 11'- 6" the room is 9'-6" wide. But the load will be placed right on the main beam wall. I was originally asking the architect about a C rate and was also considering the Amsec RF6528, both weighing in over 3k lbs. He said that was way over the floor limits and would worry about moving it into the house. That left me with the B rate which he told me was over his calculations but said he wouldn't tell me "it was going to fall through the floor". They software is looking for a max residential dead floor load of 40psf. This safe comes in at 275psf. The C rate was 380psf. TL30 amsec was even higher! He did say however to just shorten the span by putting a wall beneath the safe. Just try to grab one more joist with the wall than what the safe was going to be setting on to shorten the span. I'm going to put in a closet there or move the door to my workshop out and over a few feet. I'm going to get into it this weekend.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  18. coolluke01

    coolluke01 Member

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    Since you will be setting the safe 2" away from the support beam I would say that would no longer be just a shear strength issue. Building your wall underneath sounds like a good idea. It wouldn't hurt to double up the 2x10's with 4' or 5' 2x10's. Run them over the steel beam and then over your new wall.
    I would build your wall with 2x6's if I were you.
     
  19. grmnrkt

    grmnrkt Member

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    Even a wall out of just 2x4 12" beyond where the door of the safe will sit would stiffen the floor considerably. It would hold a TL30 no problem at that point. I'm just not going to add a wall the entire length of my basement to get the damn thing through the house and into the office room. LOL. Again its span and deflection of the beam, not Ultimate tensile strength (UTS)we are talking here.

    There are a bunch of ways to reinforce the floor, but since I have a ceiling in the basement I didn't want to rip it up if I didn't have to. I also looked at doubling up the joists as suggested, but I have some conduit and the HVAC ducts running between all the joists in question, so it kinda ties my hands as far as the method of reinforcement I can use. Throwing a couple of short 2x10s in place and not spanning the span doesn't really go far to reinforce the floor, in fact I think it would just move the point load of defection further form the wall. Im just going to drop a couple of studs to the basement floor and that will do the trick, frame it out and make a bookshelf or closet or something. Plus this is old wood and probably old growth and stronger than the 4S lumbar of today. This whole thing started with the thought of keeping the riff raff out of my stuff. Since I had nothing beforehand, I think the B rate puts me in a better situation. Besides, if the safe falls through the floor so be it. I really wanted it in the basement anyway but I'm a block short of a full height basement and it wont' fit down the stairs on the safe dolly. It would just be hard to match the 50 year old flooring when covering up the hole. ha ha.
     
  20. Arp32

    Arp32 Member

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    Grmnrkt, I was a poor structures student in architecture school and haven't done the math since, but I see a couple of things:

    Span is still (probably) the missing variable. I may have misunderstood, but it seems like you have given the room dimensions which are above the floor joists, which may or may not be the span of the 2x10s below. Unless there is a room below this room on the first floor of exactly the same size, we don't have the right number to plug in.

    In any case, basically you've got live load (moving things like humans - probably a number like 30 PSF) and dead load (bookshelves, furniture and safes - in residential a number like 10 or 20 PSF). Figure out the tributary for the two or three floor joists under your safe and see if you've got enough dead load capacity for the safe and whatever else is on those joists. Remember to figure out the span below that floor, because those joists may or may not also be carrying the walls of that room, in which case you've got a lot more math.

    Don't trust me though, I'm not licensed and I've never even been to your house to see what else is going on. But looking at it from here, you're adding at least a 40-50PSF dead load to a second floor wood framed residence. Home builders are stingy. I doubt most 2nd floor bedrooms in your subdivision are structured for the equivalent weight of two full sized American sedans.

    Full disclosure: I consulted with a structural engineer for my own safe design. It's not what I don't know that I'm worried about, it's what I don't know I don't know about.
     
  21. coolluke01

    coolluke01 Member

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    All that stuff in the joist space makes things difficult.

    If you will be using 2x4's I would recommend blocking between the studs. A 2x4 will bend easily and will loose all load bearing potential. Double studs on the ends with blocking all the way across will give you all the strength you need.

    3/4" plywood on the floors when moving the safe would help spread the weight out. Depending on the dolly being used, you could have all that weight on about 4 sq .This would be around 525 PSI! That's a lot of weight for a floor board spanning 14.5". Well actually since the floor boards are run at a diagonal the span is 20.5" 14.5 squared X 2 = 420.5 square root of 420.5 is 20.50. But I would think professional safe movers would take this into consideration.

    This is a very interesting problem, one I have never really thought about much before. I would be interested to hear if the movers had any interesting tricks.
     
  22. Teachu2

    Teachu2 Member

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    In the grand scheme of things, it would cost very little more to use 3 1/2" square .120 wall steel tubing for the corner posts of the closet - and have a much stronger support.
     
  23. coolluke01

    coolluke01 Member

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    ^^^ you would have to use a 2x8 or 2x10? header between the posts. A properly braced 2x4 wall will hold up many tons.
     
  24. anothernewb

    anothernewb Member

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    As with what others have said, if you can swing it, make a closet or something under the safe location to share the load and buttress the floor.

    However - if keeping the finished space below is a necessity, then barring electrical or plumbing running underneath; if it were me doing it and needing the space in my house - I would take out the ceiling in that part of the basement and double up the joists with more 2x10's or laminates to share the load, and refinish the ceiling. drywall is cheap, and you'll retain your space. Of course - that is assuming the steel beam that you will be transferring the load to is near a support, and not in the middle of it's span. If the beam is in the middle of it's span - and again clear space is your need, I would consider reinforcing that beam as well.
     
  25. Trueno

    Trueno Member

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    LOL!

    Hmm, wonder if the safe will make it to its final resting place against the wall or will it fall through the floor on its way there?

    instant "sunken den" :neener:
     
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