22 automatch ftf ?"s

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by ericuda, Nov 27, 2021.

  1. ericuda

    ericuda Member

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    Got out my old mark I yesterday and I am getting around 1 ftf with fed automatch per mag. Shot more than half the box already with my sp101 and tz22 and zero ftf. Took some pics. The first one is of the powder of a ftf round. Yellow flakes and looking in the case looks dark so something happened. Second is a never fired round good powder and shiny case.

    Seemed interesting that the round tried and ftf i never even heard a pop.

    I believe the ole mark needs tender loving care. Ill post them questions separately. 20211126_123216.jpg 20211126_123334.jpg 20211126_123434.jpg
     
  2. Alex Clayton

    Alex Clayton Member

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    If the same ammo is going off in other guns but not in the MK I would look at the cases. See if it looks like the MK is giving lighter hits maybe?
     
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  3. ericuda

    ericuda Member

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    Will do, I believe that is the issue. A good cleaning and maybe new springs in order.

    Never really pulled a ftf just seems odd to me it burned a few flakes of powder.
     
  4. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Can fix a lot of issues in a .22 Long Rifle pistola
     
  5. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    It could be the pistol needs cleaning IF you are getting LIGHT PRIMER STRIKE INDENT.

    But as we discussed in the "Myth busting 22LR No duds/Why duds" thread, yellow flakes mixed in with the powder could indicate priming compound moving away from the rim - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/myth-busting-22lr-no-dud-why-dud-thread.893062/#post-12019005

    So if that's the case where priming compound moved away from rim in sufficient amount, even proper strike indent on rim would not detonate the priming compound. Nothing. Failure to fire without "pop" just like your experience.

    That's been true with GSG 1911 and Advantage Arms 22LR slide conversion for my Glock 22. Keep them clean and lubed and they are reliable.

    Same for CMMG 22LR conversion bolt for my ARs. I shot thousands of rounds to see if I could shoot til the point of failure and it took enough fouling/gunk build up to where I could scoop them out before it became unreliable. A good cleaning and lubing and I was back to being reliable.

    During the "Real world ... break in" tests, 10/22 and T/CR22 were 100% reliable out of the box with around 20 different brand/weight ammunition (All the ammunition lots tested were purchased within 6 months to 2 years prior), even the dreaded Thunderbolt went bang every round. But towards the end of 4000 rounds for 10/22 and 2000 rounds for T/CR22, fouling/gunk build up FINALLY started producing A FEW failure to fire (That fired on the second primer rim strike). Good cleaning, especially of magazines restored the reliability back to 100%, yes, even for Thunderbolt.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2021
  6. ericuda

    ericuda Member

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    Live life, thank you. I never read that thread but very good info.
     
  7. CoalCrackerAl

    CoalCrackerAl Member

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    My Chiappa 1911 22 . Would light strike 3 out 10 rounds . Pull the hammer back then try again. Sometimes it would take a 3rd try to fire. I sent it to Buds. They fixed it. Never said what they did though. But it's been fine ever since.
     
  8. rsrocket1

    rsrocket1 Member

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    A dirty chamber could cause the cartridge to "almost" go into battery and allow the firing pin to hit. Problem is, it hits the rim and the rim is not seated so you'll see a nice firing pin mark, but no boom. Run a bore snake through it or clean the chamber with a brush or mop soaked in solvent.
     
  9. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    That is a very valid point.

    But OP's concern is yellow flake mixed in with powder and picture of inside case shows missing priming compound from the rim. If there is no priming compound at the rim, there is not going to be any bang no matter how clean the chamber. That's why I linked the thread where we discussed why/how priming compound could be missing from the rim - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/myth-busting-22lr-no-dud-why-dud-thread.893062/#post-12019005

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

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  10. Alex Clayton

    Alex Clayton Member

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    Thanks I had never heard of that, the priming compound moving out of the rim before. If I again have some ammo that starts giving me FTF I will have to pull some apart and see if they show this. Great info!!
     
  11. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    I have a few older rifles with parts availability issues that needed work prior to successful use. One trick I learned on rimfire pins is to bevel the edge of the firing pin to narrow its primer strike.

    Have a look at your brass; if the outer edge of the case is dented, file the bottom of the pin to move the strike force toward center. At work so I had to draw a picture, prepare to laugh.


    Tan blob is brass, brown line represents firing pin strike, black represents firing pin. If the leading edge of the pin is unusually wide, it can be filed on one side to narrow it a bit, thereby increasing strike to the now smaller contact area. Take care not to remove any length from the pin!
    5C543630-E407-4DBB-B5BA-B52390049D78.png
     
  12. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    I hope that's not normal for Federal AutoMatch. I have scads of that stuff. It's always worked well in the two guns I've used it in (Mossberg 702 and Taurus PT22), but I haven't used it in anything else yet that I can remember.
     
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  13. rsrocket1

    rsrocket1 Member

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    It hasn't been an issue. My FTF's usually occurred in a Marlin 924 and SW22A-1 but those two guns had pretty snug chambers. The ammo giving me the most problems were Federal Bulk red and blue box ammo (525 or 550/box). Automatch worked great but that was the pre-pandemic white box with the bullseye on it. They have recently been selling gray/silver boxes and you had to search for the term "automatch" on the box. I've been recently stocking up on that ammo as it seems to be turning up a lot at the local Walmarts at $18/325 which is a pretty good price. So far, they have been working well but I haven't shot them in the above guns yet.
     
  14. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    It is my opinion that all 22LR have priming compound placed in the rim when they leave the factory.

    However, depending on transportation/shipping/handling, especially bulk "loose" 22LR could be more susceptible to hard trucking vibration/shock of driving over potholes to have priming compound move away from rim. If you see priming compound mixed in with powder, that's likely what happened to cause FTF.

    Another factor is age of ammunition, post purchase handling and storage conditions.

    During past 3 years, I shot over 28,000 rounds of various brand/weight 22LR out of several 10/22s and ARs using CMMG 22LR conversion bolts. Ammunition varied in age with some more than 10 years old but few rounds per 500 bulk box of FTF I experienced did not correlate with age of ammunition. And some boxed CCI SV and Blazer that were more than 10 years old were 100% reliable.

    And when I conducted close to 6000 round "Real World ... break in" test with new 10/22 and T/CR22 using 20 different ammunition purchased within 6 months to 2 years, I had 100% reliability (Including the dreaded Thunderbolt) until at the end of 6000 round testing where fouling/gunk build up needed cleaning and 100% reliability returned after cleaning.

    Of course, my limited sample size with isolated two firearms so your experience with particular lot of ammunition in your firearms may vary.
     
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  15. Steve762us

    Steve762us Member

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    The outer edge of a rimfire case, is where the priming compound resides.
     
  16. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    Yes but it does not reside on the rim itself, which is often struck by the firing pin. The rim is for extraction, it is solid brass, and most force applied to it by the firing pin is wasted force.
     
  17. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    I believe 22LR cases are primed by "flowing/spinning" priming compound to the entire bottom of case (particularly the rim) and priming compound is detonated by compressive impact force between brass rim when struck by firing pin.

    So even if priming compound is at the rim, if most of priming compound from base of case has moved away and mixed in with the powder, there may not be enough priming compound left to ignite the powder charge as in particular with semi-autos, when round is chambered, powder charge is thrown/tossed forward possibly leaving an air gap and without priming compound at the base to jump past the air gap to ignite the powder granules, we may get a "fizz" instead of bang.
     
  18. Steve762us

    Steve762us Member

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    It's in the 'fold' of the rim.

    Rimfire-cartridge-components-Cross-sectional-diagram-of-an-uncrimped-blank-cartridge_Q320.jpg
     
  19. Alex Clayton

    Alex Clayton Member

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    Now that sounds like it makes sense. I have been shooting .22 many decades. Have since a kid preferred the "better ammo" sold in sleeves since they started doing it. I had often wondered when there was a panic, and would buy whatever I could find, why the bulk stuff with the same name on it always seemed less reliable than the ammo packed in a sleeve with the same name on it. Had always just "guessed" the bulk was not the same ammo. What you said here makes it sound like that well could be what the real culprit is here. Even when a kid and money was tight I often paid the extra for the "better" ammo as it was just a lot more fun to have less FTF's while shooting.
     
  20. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

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    https://www.amazon.com/Art-Rimfire-Accuracy-Bill-Calfee/dp/145679776X
    An excellent resource if you care for the gunsmith’s point of view on the matter.


    Some diagrams.
    ACA7D64B-F1A7-418E-81AB-2BDFEBE8B40D.jpeg


    4DCC27DC-CC14-4CD9-A980-E3067538A8D5.jpeg


    12092C0A-8AF2-4159-B009-21C539904AA9.jpeg
     
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  21. ericuda

    ericuda Member

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    Excellent picture I'll look at the strikes.
     
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