22 Mag

Who here would trust this caliber in a snub nose revolver for self-defense? Looking into the Ruger LCR in 22 Mag for the wife. Recoil, simplicity, capacity, & weight are factors.

No. She is NOT a newbie. She shoots 9's and 40's and all shots land in 9 & 10 rings at 10 yards. What she wants is something more than a 5 shot snub and prefers revolvers for SD.

 

If you look at the actual data at Ballistics By The Inch, in short barrels the .22LR and .22WMR don't differ as much as you might think, particularly in the "real-world guns" rather than their test barrel. Only in the rifles does the WMR put up numbers that are interesting.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22.html

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22mag.html

Unfortunately, they didn't have a .22WMR snubbie, so we have to guess at how it would compare to the SP101 .22LR. Maybe someone can Google up another test of a snubbie. Comparing the S&W 617 to the Ruger Speed Six, the WMR doesn't impress me much.

 

I do NOT recommend the .22 mag for self defense out of a handgun.I can hear the masses cry, oh shot placement,shot placement,shot placement, While I agree Shot placement takes a critical role in taking down an assailant, wouldnt you rather have a larger caliber hit that spot that your going to hit with that .22?
Remember Lethality does not mean incapacitation. So while you may make a lethal wound the intruder can and in a adrenaline fueled rage will continue to fight back.
If she can handle the recoil of a 9mm or 40 but wants a revolver that holds more than 5 rounds to conceal, get an sp101 in .327 magnum and be done with it.

 

Yeah. 22 Mag out of a short barrel is a lot of flash and bang but not a whole lot of energy. We have the 327 mag, but it's too heavy. I might just bite the bullet and get her a S&W Airlite 331 (32 H&R Mag). 6 Shots of 32 H&R in a 11 oz (12.5 loaded) package should do the trick. The thing is that they are pretty hard to find for a reasonable price these days.

 

I do.

I think it is a very good choice when mated with the handgun.

I have posted the link to my topic I started on February 23rd. The highpoints as to why I think a Taurus 941 is a very good choice are;

8 rounds of 22 Magnum.

Speer, Hornady and Winchester all make ammunition especially designed for use in short barrel revolvers.

Recoil - what recoil?

Comfortable grip size for smaller hands such as ladies.

Accuracy. While I cannot make this claim for all Taurus 941's mine puts 8 rounds (a cylinder full) in a 1 1/4" group at 7+ yards standing unsupported using two hand hold.

I can not make any comments about the performance of the Ruger LCR except it only holds 6 rounds and it is ugly. I fail to see why Ruger didn't use the extra steel in the LCR to make it a 8 shot.

The drawback to the Taurus 941 and Ruger LCR is the heavy trigger pull which is the nature of the beast to ensure all brands of 22 Magnum go off the first time. My next project with my 941 is to experiment with Wolff mainspring and/or clipping a coil or two off the factory mainspring to see how much I can lighten the trigger pull and still go back the first time.


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=744974

 

I wouldn't do it. I'd push more towards practicing (and good instruction from paid instructors) with more capable rounds using top quality holsters and belts. I have no doubt a rimfire can and will be deadly. I have questions of how well it would stop an attack compared to larger calibers with more velocity.

If she handles the LCR weight and size well, why not grab one in .38 special? I would feel much more comfortable with 5 rounds of .38+p than a sixth of .22 Mag. Look at frontal area. The .22WMR has a frontal area of 0.039 square inches. A .38 has a frontal area of 0.100 square inches. That's a total frontal area of 0.234 square inches for 6 rounds of .22 Mag and 0.500 square inches for the 5 shots of .38 special. Assuming both penetrate equally, the odds of hitting something vital is higher with 5 rounds of .38. From a surface area point of view, a 6 shots .22Mag gets you just slightly more surface area damage than two shots of .38.

The other side is that if penetration is equal for both, shot placement is still what's critical and having an extra round may save you if an extra person is in the attack. If six attackers show up and don't plan to leave after the first shot, I don't know which handgun I'd rather have.

Now look at a compact 9mm, say a S&W M&P9c. It holds 12+1 rounds. That is a frontal area just less than the .38, at .099 square inches. That gives you 1.287 square inches of bullet face (2.5x the 5 shot 38 and 5.5x the 6 shot .22 Mag). It also gives you more capacity which she seems to find desired. I know this is the revolver forum, but if capacity and size are two major concerns for her, I would look at a semi-auto. It's also going to be a lighter trigger pull. I find the smaller revolvers much harder to shoot well than full sized ones or double stack compact 9mm's. The LCR is a bit of anomaly and would be why I'd grab it over a small stock J-frame if a snub nosed revolver is the only acceptable solution.

There really isn't a revolver out there that has great capacity,fires a widely accepted SD bullet, is light weight, has minimal recoil, and is as small as most compact auto-loaders. If the autos are without a doubt eliminated from the list, I'd rather carry a 5 shot .38 special than a 6 shot .22 Mag any day. Personally, I'd rather carry a 13 shot compact double stack 9mm than either but if I only had faith in a revolver, it would certainly be in .38 special well before .22 LR or Mag.

 

.22Mag is better than a stick or rock, but not as good as 9/38 or any other larger caliber. Good caliber for a BUG but would never advocate it for primary carry under normal circumstances.

 

8 rounds of .22 magnum is not something to stand in front of, even from a short barrel. The mere fact of presenting a weapon is usually enough deterrent, if not and an individual has to pull the trigger, one .22 magnum round should stop the augment, if not then all 8 rounds will be a call for the meat wagon. Make up your own mind, if she is comfortable with it, that is 90 percent of the job. All too often a man will buy the sweet thing what they think she should have and not what she wants. so it gets put in the kitchen drawer and left behind. I carry a .32ACP, I'm very comfortable with it and do not feel under gunned.

 

Several manufacturers are making .22 magnum ammunition specifically designed for performance in short barrels. Some show very impressive mushrooming. I've been looking for some for months for my PMR 30 without any luck. I carry the KelTec out woods loafing or fishing and don't feel under armed for what I might encounter in those places. So, I'd answer yes.

 

benzy2,

The human body has never studied math thus it won't pay attention to your square inches and frontal area formulas.

Why just 6 attackers? Why not 12 or 18? You can play this game all day long or look at stats from real life incidents regarding number of attackers and what they did when they a) saw the gun, b) realized the victim intended to use it and c) what they did when the lead started flying?

The Taurus 941 holds 8 rounds not 6 so I am still up by 2.

Herrwather,

Have you seen what the 22 does inside the human body?

Coyote 3855,

PMR-30's are available here at two or three times msrp. No idea why they are so expensive except maybe it all hype and no production by KelTec.

 

BSA1, does the rate you bleed out notice the difference in a .22 caliber compared to a .357 caliber hole? How about the rate of fluid loss between 8 .22 caliber holes relative to 13 .355 caliber holes? I'd love to see some hard data that promotes .22 Mag as equivalent to top loads in .38+p, .357 Mag, or 9mm +p. I'm looking for it currently but so far, no luck.

 

benzy2,

The human body simply does not react the way your made up formulas would have it. Their are simply too many variables.

I never compared the 22 Magnum from a short barrel revolver to TOP loads in 38+P, 357 and 9mm+P. But that does not suggest that a 22 Magnum is not as effective as other 38. 357 and 9mm rounds. I don't two hoots about the size of the bullet hole. All I am concerned about is the attacker stopping his aggressive attack. That's all. Stop here and now as quickly as possible. I don't care how badly he is injured. I just want the attack to end.

For proof get off the Internet and go volunteer to spend time in a major hospital emergency room or roll with EMS on shooting calls. If you really have a strong stomach go watch autopsies of gun shot victims.

Be forewarned your pet theories are in for a big surprise. With all that said do carry on with your mud pie.

 

I am in the camp of .22 Magnum really needs a barrel of 5" or longer to achieve any real ballistic advantage over .22 LR
The stuff is incredibly LOUD in short barrel guns though.
Loud enough to make someone think you are shooting a much larger caliber gun at them...

 

I own a wonderful High Standard Double Action Revolver that I wouldn't hesitate to carry. Nine rounds of 22 magnum out of it's 3 inch barrel is enough to discourage even pretty determined bad guys. As they say, Shot Placement, Shot Placement, Shot Placement! Anything else may be helpful but is also secondary!

 

BSA1, what do ER visits matter to how the attack went? As you stated, the goal is to stop an attack and 30 minutes down the road I couldn't care less what happens in the hospital or ambulance. I could spend the next 10 years riding along with local calls for GSW and not have enough data to be meaningful. I don't live in an area with enough GSW calls to have anything but limited anecdotal experiences.

Out of curiosity, since it appears to me that you are implying you've seen enough first hand GSW of all calibers (or at least 22 Mag compared to 38/357/9mm) to be statistically significant, what was the average stop time for an attacker shot with 22 Mag? And 38/357/9? What percentage of events ended with one 22 Mag shot and also one 38/357/9 shot? Percentage of head shot survival for each? Anecdotal evidence is what it is and the perfect defense round is always a debate. Still, I've never seen a study of any kind put a 22 Mag on par with today's self defense centerfire rounds, especially when that 22 Mag is coming out of a snub nose. I also haven't been able to find those snub nose specific 22 Mag rounds in stock in the last year while I can all but certainly find some sort of well regarded 38/357/9 self defense ammo at some store locally.

If you feel comfortable with 22 Mag, go for it. Its less than I'd accept. When a shooter can shoot proficiently with 9mm and 40S&W, I'd caliber up with bullets designed for self defense. If my options were 22 Mag or nothing, I'd take the 22 Mag. Still, not my first choice when I am allowed to prepare for the worst.

 

benzy2,

I'm not going to get into a long whizzing match about the dozens of autopsies I have attended, what I have seen on the street and working full time in a trauma center.

You pay your money and take your chances. I believe that a resolute person armed with a 22 Magnum revolver and does not know how to do math is more capable of surviving a attack than someone packing a gun with top rated 38+P, 357 and 9mm+p who knows math and sits behind a keyboard.

 

The High Road. Your all correct.

 

DSA1, enjoy what you enjoy. I will agree to disagree as nothing you've stated deals with the 2 minutes after the self defense firearm went off. I'm not overly concerned with how a person looks in the autopsy room. I'm interested in how long a fight continued. Seems there are two ways to that, and both are less likely with a smaller hole. I'd take the biggest hole and as many of them as I can cause. If you're happy with a 22 Mag, great. I have not seen a review of data that agrees with your suggestion. I'd be willing to change my tune with more than anecdotal experiences.

 

I love it in a rifle, and recently picked up a Ruger American in the caliber... sweet.
I always liked the idea of a matching-caliber pistol, and the fact that my .22 revolver came with a .22 mag cylinder was just a happy circumstance.
It has a 6.5 (give or take)" barrel, though, and it resides in a bag in the back of my car, in case of emergency. If I find myself in a bug-home situation and don't have my EDC with me, I'll slip the Mag cylinder in and strap that on.
Not my first pick, but beats the snot out of throwing sticks.

 

Year back I new a guy with a 3 screw Rugger in 22mag., he was putting it up in cabinet and dropped it. You guessed it, hit on the hammer, discharged and he took the bullet in the shoulder. It spun him around 3 times and knocked him all way across the room. I doubt you could convince him of lack of power.

 

I have. The most common .22Mag handgun arguably is the NAA mini, which is what I use for running/DC/BUG. It fits that role just fine but I would not use it for primary carry because of its short 1 1/8" barrel. According to BBTI, .22Mag ranges between 850 and 1100 FPS out of a 2" barrel which is impressive for the caliber.

 

off-topic, but the Colt Detective Special and Taurus 856 Hy Lite (magnesium frame) are two small six-shot .38s

 

herrwalther,

The NAA revolver is one gun I have never had any use for. I did carry a High Standard derringer years ago as my "Onion Field" piece.

velojym,

Another advantage is you can carry a LOT of ammo in a small package.

 

Onward Allusion,

Getting back on track with your question check out these links;

American Rifleman, June, 2013

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/the-22-mag-for-self-defense

What the American Rifleman has to say about the Ruger LCR/

http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/25/gun-test-ruger-lcr-22-magnum-revolver/

How about a movie:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP41nm6o2LI‎

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f79ejNnewdA

This one is a very good movie. Not only does it compare how performance with different barrel lengths check out the lady shooting different snubbies at 2:34. Like I said recoil...what recoil???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfG1FxiUNBQ

Dick Metcalf says;

http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/Critical Defense-Personal Defense Breakthrough.pdf

More discussion;

http://www.chuckhawks.com/personal_defense_revolver.htm