Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Great Scot, Jul 30, 2020.
Life is full of choices be they right, wrong or indifferent.
I agree. It would be nice if people would answer the OP questions with out sidetracking the thread.
A 22lr gun will never be my first choice but I have absolutely no problem using one if that is what is close at hand. Any hand gun of any caliber is just a tool to use until you can reach for a rifle. At least that is how we trained when I was in the Army.
I had a bit of a scary moment at the local conservation range not too long ago. I had two meth heads try walking up on me with bad intentions. I had my Kel-Tec PMR loaded and in a holster on my side. I pulled it out but kept it pointed at the ground the whole time. The dope fiends had no idea what I had from 75-100 yards away. I'm pretty sure that 30 rounds of 22 magnum would have done the job if needed, then I would have grabbed my micro 9mm that is always in a IWB holster before going for my rifle that was sitting on the bench.
I have carried a 25 caliber before when it was what could be easily concealed. I would carry a small 22lr pistol or revolver if I could find one and an ammo I felt comfortable with reliability. They are not as effective at stopping with a single shot. But I think catching holes can be a good way to dissuade an aggressor every time.
22lr is my second choice. Literally. A micro 22lr makes for a great weak side BUG.
I think of a 22 as a long, noisy ice pick.
The article sucked. Shoot out street lights one by one to shock the bad guy when you bring the fight to him, in the dark. There were a couple of good points mixed in with the dumb crap. And pointing out Mexico's ridiculous gun laws only gives ammo to antis. I believe JB has said a 9mm is too much.
A 22 would never be my first choice but I like it for a BUG.
A tad bit off topic here but,,,
That Beretta 70S that bannockburn posted the picture of,,,
Might be the most aesthetically pleasing handgun I've ever seen.
Actually the finish on my Beretta is hard chrome plating put on over 35 years ago by Ron Mahovsky of Metalife. I probably have well over 10.000 rounds through my Model 70S and it's still going strong!
That explains why I couldn't find a "shiny" 70s anywhere on the inter-webs.
I do not see in my post where I mentioned others.
Thread is about 22 cal which I addressed in my post.
Well I first got it the original finish was a nice blue. But after a few years there was a problem with rust forming on the slide and frame in a couple of places. Wrote to Beretta and they admitted there was something wrong with the bluing process and reblued for free. Everything was okay for awhile but then the rust returned so I decided to get something a bit more durable. Came across an article in one of the gun mags about how great Metalife SS Chromium finish was and so I decided to have it done by them. What was even better than it being such a terrific finish was that it was a good deal less expensive than having it blued again!
I use my Ruger mark 4 suppressed to shoot coyotes at 4 to 50 feet.
All but 1 I shot up close dropped where they stood and the ones a little further out ran off and die somewhere.
With CCI ammo I never get a dud and as long as I fire standard or high velocity ammo it doesn't jam.
I have a P32 and LCP that aren't any bigger than a little 22 auto, and they shoot much better rounds.
Similarly, I have a snub 22lr, but prefer to carry the same sized snub 38.
Why would I carry a handgun chambered in 22lr, appropriate for shooting squirrels, when I could carry one the exact same size and weight chambered in 380acp or 38 special?
If and when I am too old and feeble to handle a 32 revolver anymore, I will consider 22lr. Until then, I will continue to avoid it for SD.
Interesting. I've heard stories of people getting shot with 30-06 and still try to get away, and other people getting shot with multiple shots of 9mm and surviving. It's almost like shot placement is key regardless of the cartridge or creature.
A wimpy round it is not,,,
Shot placement is king.
I'm not going to tell anyone what to carry or what not to carry and I greatly enjoy shooting rimfire. However, this is a topic (rimfire CCW) where some may gloss over an important wrinkle. It's the wrinkle of the rimfire case head where either a disc of priming compound is held or slurry is dropped and spun to ignite the powder and propel the bullet.
Most people don't give this a second thought because of the typical rimfire field or range experience of loading the tube, cylinder, or mags and having them in the range bag or car. Then, loading and firing, with maybe a few duds in the brick (or none ever if you shoot CCI and believe the internet - haha). On cleanup, the ammo goes back in the range bag or on the shelf and waits there until used again.
Some people have received bad bricks with a suspiciously large amount of duds. Part of that is "rough handling" where the priming disc has partially fallen out of the rim. Firing pin strikes on the side where the disc has separated from the rim may not ignite. Similarly, slurry priming can have voids or places where the compound has cracked out of the rim. This situation is why a rimfire dud may be able to be turned 90* and then fire. Anyone who has shot rimfire for long has experienced this.
You can see where I'm going with this. Think about the rigors of life and how many times a person bends, twists or bounds up and down the stairs in a given day. Think about your movement day after day. Now think about how most people CC (and rightly so) - with the muzzle down in a holster. Think about what the orientation of those rimfire cartridges would be. That is, rim up, bullet down as you jostle those cartridges by your movement as long as you carry during the day and then day after day.
What I am saying is that CC'ing rimfire could cause the same "rough handling" problems, just inadvertently.
Compare that to the priming compound in centerfire. It is held securely in a cup, with a felt backer and an anvil holding it in place. The cup is held securely in place inside the primer pocket.
Again, I am not telling people how to carry or what to carry, but just that most shooter's typical range experience with rimfire reliability may be different when that ammo is physically on a person. There is a greater chance to degrade the ability for those rimfire cartridges to fire simply by carrying them daily as the priming compound can loosen or crack, falling vertically out of the rim and into the powder.
How rimfire is handled matters and that is something pertinent to the topic of rimfire CCW.
I have a few .22 handguns that would be small enough to consider for carry. As most people say, wouldn't be my first choice caliber-wise but you have to admit that the ammo is (generally) cheap and readily available. Even at Wal-Mart.
A little before truly affordable micro-380s got on the scene, I carried a Beretta 21A once or twice as a primary. It was better than nothing, but I felt distinctly undergunned.
I got another 21A, but nowadays it is just a fun gun. If I were going to press something I have into that role, it would probably be my 317 with the steel cylinder. I feel better about an 8-shot revolver than I would about any small(-ish) .22 auto that I own.
That's it. I need to buy a rimfire and carry it (as a backup) for a month and then shoot that ammo and see what happens! I'm actually really intrigued by this. Okay, off to find a suitable gun! A Buckmark won't do!
OP asks if a .22 is in my defensive battery.
Nope...not at this time.
But, I’d have no issue rolling a Keltec PMR 30 into it if it proves itself reliable to me. 18 ounces loaded. 30 rounds of .22 Mag on board. 31 with one in the chamber. Lots of sights/aftermarket add on options....One could do a lot worse.
To each their own but I won't trust my life with a .22. If I need something small in size I go with my sig 938 and actually don't even find the need for that very often
You know that was the same thing I thought when I first saw it in an article in Guns and Ammo magazine. Just the right size and weight for a .22 plinker that you could take anywhere, while looking mighty stylish and pleasing to the eye. I think the silvery hard chrome finish definitely adds to the overall effect too!
One of my most favorite guns to shoot is the LCR22. I love taking this gun out and just plinking. I like setting up shotgun clays and shards and shooting them as fast as I can. I was out one day and put some Interceptors HYPER VELOCITY ammo in the gun. Just to have some fun, a little more noise and a little more recoil. I was shooting the clays as fast as I could and when finished, just said Wow! I have never considered a 22.cal for self defense, but Dang, 8 sizzling rounds into the face, and neck with this stuff would sure be a mess for some one. And the thing is, you can get really accurate with one of these guns. 22.cal is cheap and you can get a whole lot of range time shooting these guns.
I do not carry one for defense, but just wonder if someone did nail a attack in the face, maybe it would be more of a defense than say a 9mm. Not saying it would, but to say a 22.cal is not a defensive weapon is BS. Unless of course you have a face made out of elephant hide. And of course some do, and some have heads harder than steel. But it is a weapon no matter how you cut it.
And I would not be surprise if there are Folks out there that can shoot the snot out of a 22.cal much better than many can shoot a 9mm, 40 cal etc. Some say accuracy trumps the size of the cartridge. And man that really bothers some folks.
If one has some sort of physical limitation then one does the best they can with what they are able to use.
If a 22lr is the most I could handle then that is what I would carry and it would have to be good enough. Literally better than no firearm at all.
I hope however no one is fooling themselves about the effective stopping power of 22lr though. It may well kill someone, but whether they are able to kill you back after you have shot them is another matter entirely. There have been people shot with a 30-06 who lived, but you'll find fewer of them by an order of magnitude or two than people shot with 22lr who lived.
Shot placement is of course key, but it becomes vastly more key with low powered rounds than it does with high powered.
If it's the best you are able to do then do at least that.
Just don't fool yourself about it being any kind of a certain manstopper.
What is stopping power? How do you measure it? And who carries a .30-06 as a ccw? I'm one who would rather have a .45 than a 9mm, all other things being equal, but .45 ACP, 9mm Luger, and .22 LR do not have any sort of significant hydrostatic effects (although that term is somewhat lost on me, hydrokinetic seems like it would make more sense, but I digress). .22LR makes holes in targets. 9mm and .45 do too. .22 is sufficiently powerful to be lethal, if you put a bullet in the right place. Is 9mm and .45 more lethal? No, dead is dead (we aren't even looking for death anyway, we are looking for a threat to stop, but that often coincides with death, sadly). There are merely more places you can place a .45 or a 9mm bullet to be lethal. If you can reliably place more .22 bullets in lethal places than you could 9mm or .45, I have a tough time telling someone they are doing the wrong thing. Is it a handicap? Is the .22 LR limited? Do you need to be more careful where you put the bullets if you choose to use a .22? Does a .45/9mm/.40 S&W/.357 Sig/10mm penetrate further? Yes. (That's why I carry a .45 ) But if you are significantly better at shooting it, is it the wrong choice?
My wife does not enjoy shooting. She shoots because she is aware of the universal depravity of humanity. She's awfully competent with her .22, much better than with any centerfire handgun. Why? Because she has practiced with it much more! Her carry gun is a .32, because bigger bullets. Looking semi-objectively from the outside, I would almost prefer her to carry the .22! She is more competent with that, it carries more ammunition, follow-up shots are faster, etc. Pretty much all of us in this thread are better at shooting .22s than our carry guns. How much better do you shoot your .22? And is that difference enough to overcome the ballistic shortcomings of .22s? For many of us, no. For some of us, it absolutely is. Those who choose to carry the arm with which they are competent should not be maligned by those of us who due to any circumstances are competent with a larger caliber. Should we push ourselves to be better shots/more competent shooters? Absolutely. But if I'm training someone I'd much rather they make a responsibly informed decision to carry something with which they are competent than carry something in a larger caliber that they have not yet learned to shoot well. There isn't a gun powerful enough to make up for bad shooting. Well, smaller than 105mm.
OMG = I had a customized 1911 that was done by SS Metalife ---- back in the 1980's ------------EARLY 80's.
Looks sweet and keep the age a secret.
I'm teaching the girlfriend to shoot. Never handled a gun in her life. Terrified at first, she eventually was grouping as well as I. So far she's shot the Colt Gold Cup .22 and the Ruger Mark IV Lite, with optical sight. She loves the Mark IV, but I want her to get used to iron sights. Next is my S&W M&P Compact .22 like the one above. It's a fine pistol, my newest, and I believe she'll end up loving it, once she decides on a sight picture. Hopefully this coming week.
I once used my Ruger RST-6 for HD, as it was all I had. (early 80s) Of course I was always told then that .357 magnum was the hot setup, and why didn't I have one. I generally remarked I could empty the mag into them before their second shot, after their first miss. Tongue-in-cheek of course, but I was really good with that gun, rapid-fire. Ammo was always CCI Stingers or Remington Yellow Jackets.
Beware the man with one gun, as he generally knows how to use it.
22lr is not currently in my clutch of SD weapons. I have 3 or 4 rifles chambered in it but no pistols. If I were to consider a .22 for defensive purposes, I think I would go with something like a Ruger MK IV with something like a 6" barrel. I know that sounds silly. Why carry a full size gun in .22 that is larger than a similar .45? However, I like the range the longer barrel would give me as well as the accuracy. 10 rounds of good ammo coming out of a gun with nearly 0 recoil sounds reasonable. I could honestly see myself getting a nice stainless Mk (whatever) some years down the road for such use.
That said, today I am flying blind, whistling past a graveyard, and will surely be murdered at my desk where I sit because I ONLY have a .22 magnum NAA in my pocket. No centerfire, no reload. 5 rounds of single action in one pocket and a multitool in the other. The office door is locked, but I'm not sure if I reupped our ninja insurance. The roof is pretty vulnerable.
I have no issues with a rimfire SD weapons. I wouldn't bet on one if I were going to war or walking downtown after dark, but they beat going unarmed. If that is all you have or can handle, good on you.
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