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.22 rifle w/ velocitators vs small cal handgun ballistics

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by MrWesson, Apr 15, 2011.

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  1. MrWesson

    MrWesson Member

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    First off I personally have no need for a HD .22

    I was reading a thread about .22 for defense and I got to thinking how would the best performing .22 round(IMO velocitors) perform against other calibers.

    Clearly rimfire is not as reliable as centerfire but out of the 1000's of cci rounds I have fired I have found it to be incredibly reliable.

    .22 velocitor 40grain 1435fps and have 191ft lbs of energy, ~11-12in penetration and ~.35 expansion.

    A few examples of .380 and .32 acp
    .32 acp on average ~ less than 10in penetration and around .40 expansion. Of course better ammo is available and I have seen up to .50 expansion with less penetration.

    .380 Rem. Golden Saber 102gr.JHP 925fps 194ft lbs .41 expansion 9.4" penetration

    The best .380 on the chart
    Cor-Bon +P 90gr 1041fps 217ft lb 9" penetration (no expansion data/Probably close to .5)

    I know comparing a small pistol to a rifle is not fair but the point being using a .380 for defense is deemed adequate while .22 rifles for HD are ridiculed.

    What are your thoughts?
     
  2. hirundo82

    hirundo82 Member

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    Part of it is that, while small handgun cartridges aren't ideal for self defense, the guns they are chambered in are so easy to carry you are more likely to have it when you need it.

    For home defense size isn't a consideration, so why not choose something more effective?
     
  3. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Were I a bad guy, I don't believe I would want to be shot with either of them.

    Were I a little old lady with a 10/22 I had shot rats in the barn with since 1970, I pity the fool that gets in front of it while intending to do me harm.

    Velocitor or Super-X solids wouldn't make any difference.

    rc
     
  4. mustang_steve

    mustang_steve Member

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    The penetration number is due to the smaller projectile having a greater focus of energy delivery.

    100ft/lbs delivered in a 1x1" area is going to be about 100psi of force. Now in 2x2" area it's about 25psi of force (as the force is split amongst 400% the surface). This makes a massive difference in penetration.

    This is why if you want to use a low-powered gun for recoil purposes you have to decide between a shallow semi-typical profile or a deep pencil thick wound profile.

    Also factor in the heavier round in the .32..that means it's less effected by resistance than the lighter .22 round, thus maintains it's energy better...thus the penetration it has at all.
     
  5. MrWesson

    MrWesson Member

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    The velocitors have nearly 200ft lb of energy not 100.

    If the .22 expands to nearly the same size as the .32(veloictors expand to ~.35) how is the impact point smaller than the .32?

    I get that but maybe that person only can afford one gun or they bought a .22 rifle first(I did) and have to wait awhile before buying another.
     
  6. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    I am assuming you mean Velocitor not Velocitator. Having seen a person shot with a 22 high velocity cartridge in the neck I think I will pass on self defense with that one.

    Do you mean business? If so you better chose something a little more serious.
     
  7. ssyoumans

    ssyoumans Member

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    FYI, I don't think you can get even close to 1460fps. Out of my M&P 15-22 and Marlin 22" 25N bolt action, I only get 1280fps for 146 ft-lbs. I was really disappointed in them.

    Stingers outperformed them out of my rifles with 1553 fps and 171 ft-lbs. Perhaps less penetration.

    I was going to try some of the Aguila Interceptors, same spec as the Velocitors, and see if they performed closer to spec.

    Anyone else chrono'd either?
     
  8. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    I have no particular problem using a 22 rifle for home defense as long as it is reliable. A Ruger 10/22 would be darn easy to point and shoot effectively with a little practice. They are natural pointers. CCI Velocitors would be high on my list of possible choices for this purpose.

    The truth is I have no particular problem using a 22 handgun for home defense or self defense if that is all you have.

    Added: Not to get into a big discussion about personal defense or home defense in general, but the idea is to quickly end the fight not have to punch 10 holes with a 22 rifle with questionable or unpredictable results.

    Not everyone can afford your modest typical suite of long guns; 22 rifle, 12 ga shotgun, and one centerfire such as 223-ish or something used for "deer hunting". Typically what kind of long gun you choose relates to your intended purpose and you make do with that for home defense until you are affluent enough to buy more specialized guns.

    The same applies to handguns in a more limited way. You will likely not choose a 8" 44 mag revolver for home defense but you might choose one for whitetail hunting.

    The issue with 22 rimfires being used for self defense is more about reliability of the cartridge to fire and anyone that buys bulk 22 ammo, you usually have some duds. Centerfire ammo is just more reliable. But many of the compact centerfire pistols aren't as reliable in functionality. Tis why I tend to start with a Glock as they are very reliable or go with revolvers where all you have to do is pull the trigger again to cycle the cylinder to the next chamber.

    Choices and priorities often reflect your perceived need. If you are a hunter and have limited funds, you more than likely go with hunting type weapons and use them for home defense as needed even though that short barreled military/police style shotgun might be a better choice for home defense than the 12 ga Remington 870 with a 28" barrel.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2011
  9. buttrap

    buttrap Member

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    A .22lr sure is not my top pick but a small .22lr on you beats a .44 at home. I have not had great luck with any of the super HV .22 loads grouping as well as standard or even standard HV loads but for short range defence use thats not going to be a issue.
     
  10. mustang_steve

    mustang_steve Member

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    Mr. Wesson, the 100lbs was for sake of example.

    Expansion does not happen immediately upon impact, it happens over a distance. This still explains the penetration difference.

    If you want small caliber defensive rounds, get a .25acp with Glasers (for surface damage), FMJ (to meet FBI penetration standards) or Hornady XTP (for a lower penetration value with a wider wound channel due to the expansion of the round). .25acp is a round designed to feed reliably in even the crappiest of pistols...so finding a reliable one is pretty much cake.

    Honestly, comparing a .22lr to a .32acp is like comparing a smart car to a kia rio.
     
  11. Water-Man

    Water-Man Member

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    It's not that a .22 won't do the job. It's that a larger bullet will do it better. If you're going to use a .22, the Velocitor is one of the better rounds you can use.
     
  12. MrWesson

    MrWesson Member

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    No prob and like I said I wouldnt use .22/.25 for defense(I have better guns for that) but If I only had a .22 rifle or pistol you better believe I would have them loaded with velocitors ready to go.

    I am a minimum 9mm guy but just an observation from reading a thread posted by someone else.

    .223 is a small bullet too ;)
     
  13. antiquus

    antiquus Member

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    True, but the .223 is moving at a speed that causes hydrostatic shock, and no .22lr round is going to get there. Instead, like most pistol rounds (5.7 may be the exception, but I personally don't think so) either no or very little hydrostatic effect is generated, and you have to disable using the old fashioned method of poking a hole in the target. There doesn't seem to be wide agreement on the ability of any handgun to generate hydrostatic shock.

    So yes the .22 penetrates and does so very well, and I am sure unloading a full magazine of a 10/22 would render any assailant incapable and probably dead. Also, rapid fire with little recoil is nothing to be ignored, so that chance of putting a significant amount of that magazine on target is greater. In addition, the .22 would not probably over penetrate, leaving a through hole, but the bullet taking with it energy meant for the target - overpenetration is wasted energy and less effective power.

    But I'd bet 90% of us here know the double tap routine taught for over 75 years now - 2 shots and evaluate the damage/move to the next target. The .22 wouldn't fit this pattern, as 2 shots aren't going to guarantee a stop unless it's a head shot or other very lucky cns hit. Well there are no guarantees for any caliber, but there are calibers that have a history of being good immediate stoppers, and they are large and powerful. without being too powerful and overpenetrating.

    So all this palaver is just to say if you have to use a .22 don't worry, but empty the damn magazine. ;)
     
  14. Geckgo

    Geckgo Member

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    People actually not completely bashing the poor little .22, that's nice to see. Velocitors will definitely penetrate from a rifle, handguns the velocity drops to right at or slightly below 1000fps for them. I have even seen a couple crony tests claiming around 900, but most of what I see is right around 1000 from a pistol.

    .25, .32, .380, use FMJ flat points, nuff said.
     
  15. merlinfire

    merlinfire Member

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    I've always been of the school of thought that every gunfight is a "run what you brung" affair, but if I have time to prepare, and I'm thinking about the possible ensuing court case, its easier to explain 3 shots of 9mm than 12 shots of .22LR. The newspaper article will not go into detail about the relative ft-lbs of energy difference of the sectional density of the two rounds necessitating the use of more .22 shots. It will just report that you shot him 12 times and that it seemed excessive.

    I don't know if it would happen that way, but I am consciously taking all steps I can to avoid the tar-and-feather game if the worst should happen.
     
  16. Hoppes Love Potion

    Hoppes Love Potion Member

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    That's why I load my .22 rifle with CCI Small Game Bullets. 12 shots seems more reasonable to the jury when you are defending your life using squirrel ammo shot from a squirrel rifle.
     
  17. Apple a Day

    Apple a Day Member

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    I've played around shooting catalogues with different calibers (at 25 yards) for comparison and for fun. My nonscientific testing :

    .32ACP ball from a 4.5" bbl= 680 pages average
    .32ACP ball from a 20" bbl=920 pages average
    9x18 95g FMJ = 700 pages
    .22LR 36g HP from 6" bbl= 450 pages
    .22LR 36g HP from 16" bbl= 950 pages

    I'd really, really prefer a 12 gage.
     
  18. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    Any deep puncture wound has the potential to be fatal but large game shot with a .22 tend to run off and die sometimes days later. That is why we don't use them to hunt deer. In home defense you want something that will end hostile action as soon as possible. If something is not suitable to reliably bring down a 175 pound buck, it is not reliable enough to drop dangerous crack head in the 175 pound class either, especially since this dangerous game is capable of shooting back.
     
  19. merlinfire

    merlinfire Member

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    Them's just the facts. I think this is a good rule of thumb.
     
  20. mustang_steve

    mustang_steve Member

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    Yep, if you must have a .22 caliber rimfire round for defense, go .22WMR. The CCI Maxi-Mag HP is a heck of a round, having massive amounts of muzzle energy for it's tiny size.

    Otherwise, .223 is fine as mentioned, or just say screw it all and get a 9mm carbine. It's not optimal, but nothing in this world is.
     
  21. woad_yurt

    woad_yurt Member

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    I have an old Glenfield 60 and I'd pick that over any handgun I have were I forced into a fight and if it was handy. After untold thousands of rounds, it's gotten to the point where I can pretty accurately shoot that thing almost like a machine gun.

    I admit that it'd be a pain to carry concealed, though....
     
  22. gym

    gym member

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    9mm, is same diameter as 380, so it's still small. Powerball 100 gr. Case and coffin closed. i think its 1375 fps. hard to beat without stepping up to a 40 or 45, 0r even a 38 which is the same diameter as a 380 and a 357 basiclly. Whe they show that little bullett next to a giant 38 or 357, you will be awarded the iron cross oh wait that's German for flying, the good guy who survived the battle with the bad guy award. Not the guy who tried to ccw a 22 ruger rifle award.
     
  23. MrWesson

    MrWesson Member

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    CCW a rifle?.. Wat u talkin bout?:confused:
     
  24. deacon8

    deacon8 Member

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    If I needed to use a gun against another person, I would rather have a .22 rifle over a little .380 (or similar) any day.

    When I lived in Alaska, I knew a retired police officer that worked in Anchorage. He had been shot two different times, during two different instances--once with a .357, and once with a .22 LR. I don't recall what types of bullets were used, but the results of each was interesting to hear about. He was in a shootout when he was shot with the .357, and until the shootout was over, he hadn't even realized he was shot; he was shot in the stomach. When he was shot with the .22 LR, he was investigating a break-in. Long story short, he was shot in the chest, with the bullet entering a lung. There was no exit, but it was within only an inch or two from exiting. However, he said it knocked him down like a lightning bolt from Zeus. He woke up after the ambulance had arrived. So in his experience, the .22 was more effective at putting him down, which is something he talked about often whenever there was discussion of self-defense ammunition. Furthermore, I have always kept this story in mind because it was a true testament to the .22's validity.

    I am not saying I would rather have a .22 over a .357 (though I might in some instances of self-defense). And I realize there are many factors, such as adrenaline, bullet type, etc. However, a .22 can be a completely effective self-defense round, and like I said at the beginning, I would rather have a .22 rifle over a little .380 any day (if it was feasible).

    For what it's worth...

    -Deacon
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2011
  25. MrWesson

    MrWesson Member

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    I bet if they put that .380 into his lungs he would have had the same effect.

    I don't think a .22 rifle with velocitors is necessarily more effective than a .380 pistol but I do think it is as effective but I do know that I can consistently put more rounds on target with a .22 rifle than with a small CCW pistol.
     
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