Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

22 vs 460 Wtby

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by hogshead, Mar 11, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. hogshead

    hogshead Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    Messages:
    987
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Blame it on the rain. I've been doing some number crunching and I came up with the following theories. A 22 is as effective against a man as a 460 wtby mag is against an elephant.
    Here goes my reasoning.The 460 develops 8100 ft lbs of energy with a 500gr bullet at 2700 fps. A large bull elephant can weigh up to 16000 lbs. So roughly 1 ftlb of energy for 2 lbs of elephant. I think that everyone will say that the 460 is enough gun for an elephant.
    The lowly 22 develops 100 ft lbs [more in some loads but keeping the math easy] . A large man weighs around 200 lbs. So roughly 1ft lb of energy for every 2lbs of man. I dont think that many will say that the 22 is enough gun for a man. Are men tougher than elephants?
     
  2. Kindrox

    Kindrox Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2006
    Messages:
    703
    I think people agree that shot placment on an elephant is key. And shot placment with a .22 on a man would also be key.

    A single shot 460 on an elephant, well placed, probably has the same affect as a single .22 on a man, well placed.
     
  3. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2007
    Messages:
    59,082
    Location:
    Eastern KS
    Energy is a meaningless measurement to attempt any comparison like that.

    Penetration might prove more meaningful when it comes to elephants.

    rc
     
  4. Oyeboten

    Oyeboten Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Messages:
    3,696
    I have thought abouth the same thing, roughly.


    I rescue inner City Birds who are sick, hurt or as may be, provide first aid and or other procedures, care, convelescence, release when possible...and, I deal with quite a few Pellet Gun injuries and perforations.

    Most of these Birds weigh from 140 to 350 Grammes....some lighter, depends on species.

    Pellets range from the .177 to maybe .20, Wadcutters and BBs.


    Dunno attributed Ft Lbs.


    But, more like if a man were shot with something the size of an old 35mm Film Can, proportion wise.
     
  5. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    47,959
    Location:
    0 hrs east of TN
    Non-linear relationship.
     
  6. lions

    lions Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2008
    Messages:
    1,204
    Location:
    Kansas
    That comparison would hold more water if you were hunting a man with a .22 and waited to line up the perfect shot on his vitals.
     
  7. hogshead

    hogshead Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    Messages:
    987
    Location:
    North Carolina
    What about knockdown isn't anyone going to say there is no such thing.
     
  8. toivo

    toivo Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    2,464
    Location:
    New York State
    Try thinking in terms of thickness of skin and distance from surface to vital organs, rather than pure mass.
     
  9. HOV

    HOV Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2010
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    VA
    By that same logic, a 600# man would receive 3x less "effect" than I would (me being 200#) from being shot by the same bullet.
     
  10. youngda9

    youngda9 member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    877
    If energy was everything, then you would be right. Bullet placement, size, weight, etc are all factors. What if you fired a bullet the size of a bucket of paint with 100ft-lbs of energy at a guy...it wouldn't penetrate or kill him.
     
  11. 627PCFan

    627PCFan Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2007
    Messages:
    2,001
    Location:
    Sterling, VA
    They do have one thing in common. I dont want to be shot by either-
     
  12. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,375
    Location:
    Elbert County, CO
    Exactly. Too many other factors, it's not a simple equation.

    Also to consider, as with many things (biological and inorganic alike), as size goes up, structural integrity/strength goes down. Pound for pound, a man is much stronger than an elephant; A man in good shape can lift at least his own weight with relative ease, while an elephant could not stand up with 5 tons on it's back. Similarly, a cat 1/15th our size has strength disproportionate to that ratio (try holding one that's pissed off). Then consider an ant...........
     
  13. hogshead

    hogshead Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    Messages:
    987
    Location:
    North Carolina
    So a man is tougher than an elephant propotionatly.
     
  14. -eaux-

    -eaux- Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2009
    Messages:
    321
    Location:
    Louisiana
    never hunted elephant, but isn't the recommended shot placement on one a brainshot rather than vitals?
    with an appropriate caliber it still usually requires a follow-up shot.
    i'd think a couple rounds in the melon with a .22 would have similar effect on a man.
    that being said, i'd have to agree with the apples-to-oranges sentiment.
     
  15. fireman 9731

    fireman 9731 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    2,178
    Location:
    Kentucky
    It only takes 2 PSI for a number 8 nail to penetrate a human skull, so a 2x4 must be stronger than a man.

    Interesting number crunching but its kinda comparing apples to oranges.
     
  16. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,375
    Location:
    Elbert County, CO
    I just love these tidbits, like the "it only takes 8 pounds of force to rip off an ear" and such.

    Hold a nail to your head and apply 2 pounds of pressure. I gaurantee it's not going in. It'll barely leave a red mark on the skin.
     
  17. winknplink

    winknplink Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2009
    Messages:
    157
    Location:
    W. Kentucky
    well, to be fair about the nail thing, 2lbs of force applied to the head of a nail is multiplied several times that value at the point of the nail.

    Remember the Dr. Shoals shoe insert commercial about the woman in high-heels and how the amount of pressure at the tip of her heals, under her normal weight, was actually equivalent to the weight of several elephants? Same principle.

    Just clearing that up.
     
  18. HGUNHNTR

    HGUNHNTR Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2006
    Messages:
    2,541
    Location:
    Georgia
    "knockdown" is a marketing term plain and simple. You have clearly ingested your share.
     
  19. wilson

    wilson Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    203
    I bet a bullet the size of a bucket of paint fired with 100 ft lbs would knock him down though.
     
  20. sonier

    sonier Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Messages:
    916
    Location:
    Westcliffe Co.
    also a big key factor, ft. pounds over distance, and velocity.
    a .22lr will penatrate a elk shoulder blade at 20 yards, so you could argue a 22lr can take down a elk, shot placement and distance is key.
     
  21. -eaux-

    -eaux- Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2009
    Messages:
    321
    Location:
    Louisiana
    i could argue that if i threw a rock at a brick wall it would have the same effect as pulling the wings off a fly.
    dot dot dot
     
  22. toivo

    toivo Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    2,464
    Location:
    New York State
    What caliber for fly?

    [​IMG]
     
  23. RyanM

    RyanM Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,412
    Location:
    PA
    A better measurement would be how big a hole it makes. MacPherson estimates that you have to destroy 22 grams of lung tissue per 100 pounds of body weight, to kill an animal rapidly with a double-lung shot that doesn't hit the heart or aorta. For a 16,000 pound elephant, that's 352,000 grams, while a .460 Wby, even if the bullet tumbles (which even the roundnose bullets tend to, due to their length; recovered monolithic solids are usually bent slightly from tumbling), will crush maybe 500-700 grams tops.

    Of course, a double lung shot on an elephant will result in it running several hundred yards, if not a good fraction of a mile, trumpeting and spraying blood from his trunk the whole way.

    To kill an elephant cleanly with a .460, you'd want a heart, aorta, or brain shot.

    On the other hand, a 200 pound human needs 44 grams of lung tissue, while a .22 roundnose crushes only about 10. Maybe 15 if it tumbles. A little better proportionally, but still pretty far short of the goal.

    And similarly, while a double lung shot on a human with a .22 is probably going to be lethal eventually, they'd have quite a bit of time to get even. You'd once again want a heart, aorta, or brain shot.
     
  24. -eaux-

    -eaux- Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2009
    Messages:
    321
    Location:
    Louisiana
    kudos!
    lmao at that one.
    (.22WMR, by the way)

    i still say the answer to the larger question is a headshot.
    if you're undergunned for your prey, you'd better be able to put two into the noggin.
    and you should seriously reconsider your caliber of choice.

    if you're trying for a double-lung shot on an ELEPHANT, you must want to be trampled repeatedly by a soon-to-be-dead elephant.
     
  25. Poprivit

    Poprivit Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2006
    Messages:
    75
    Location:
    Las Vegas (Bring money)
    Many years ago two Ph hunters were in a bar in Kenya discussing just such a question. Now, I think alcohol was involved, but who can say. (Short version) They proceeded to shoot an elephant in the soft area near the stomach and in direct line with the heart. The elephant showed no reaction. Took a while, but it died from the lowly .22.

    Now, you may cast aspersions upon this story, but I've heard it from another PH who was there (I've been on 4 safaris), and he wouldn't ever inflate a story ...
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page