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223 load experimentation

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by tyeo098, Jul 22, 2013.

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  1. tyeo098

    tyeo098 Member

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    So those familiar with my 'Name that powder!' thread will know that I recently came into a bunch of factory reject AMERC 30 carbine loads. Well those re-issues serves me so well through my little blue I went and bought some reject 223 cases as well.

    Here is the pull data from 30 of those rounds: http://tyleryeomans.com/223kimball.html

    This powder is unknown, but from VLD and average charge weight it seems to be right around the BL-C(2)/846 surplus range.

    So I worked up a reduced load of 25.3gr of the powder, using the Mexican match theory.

    Here are the not-too-shabby-for-100$-for-1000-rds-223 results: http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s249/tyeo098/20130721_210958_zps653bd244.jpg

    Target was at 25yrds (since the longer range was closed :cuss:) and my rifle it sighted in for 100yrds.

    Anyways, my problem. Do these primers look flattened, or in any way show signs of excessive pressure?
    http://s154.photobucket.com/user/tyeo098/media/20130721_222117_zpsa1de5eda.jpg.html
    http://s154.photobucket.com/user/tyeo098/media/20130721_223150_zps58f485c4.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2

    Thanks all!
     
  2. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

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    Generally, powders used in 30 Carbine is in the W296/H110, Alliant 2400, or IMR4227 burn rate range.

    Much too fast for full power 223 Remington loads.

    In the pictures I see a pierced primer and primer cup flowing around the firing pin. Not good pressure signs.
     
  3. tyeo098

    tyeo098 Member

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    Oh, the 30 carbine were separate loads, from a separate thread I was referencing.
    This powder was pulled from 223 cases.

    Can you identify which case has the pierced primer? I don't remember seeing one last night when I took the pictures. It may be a shadow.
     
  4. cfullgraf

    cfullgraf Member

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    Second picture top row and second row, second cases from the left look like pierced primers.

    he bottom row of primers, the firing pin dimple looks shallow indicating the pressure has pushed the primer cup back. Some of the primers, the cup has extruded around the firing pin. Not necessarily a sign of over pressure as the hole in the bolt could be oversized but not all the primers show this trait.

    Since the powder is pulled from 223 Remington cartridges, then it is not as dangerous as I first thought.
     
  5. tyeo098

    tyeo098 Member

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    The primers were pulled from Amerc cases as well, and kind of went in really easily when I primed the good cases. Would loose fitting primers cause the issues seem in the pictures?
     
  6. tyeo098

    tyeo098 Member

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    Oh, also I was getting a lot of short stroking.

    Does that mean anything? Underpressure?
     
  7. Kernel

    Kernel Member

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    Underpressure and/or improper pressure wave-form.
     
  8. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

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    What kind of primer are you using?

    Some sort of RE-CYCLED primer that you punched out of known junk ammo???

    NEVER do that!
     
  9. tyeo098

    tyeo098 Member

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    I'm unsure of what you mean by this.
    The ammo wasnt corroded or junk, all the cases simply had a split neck when they were loaded. How would that have affected the primer?
     
  10. moxie

    moxie Member

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    I also see some flowing around the firing pin.

    I know you said they were all fired from the same gun but some of the firing pin hits are so different it gives the appearance of several different guns.

    BTW, many of us would never use AMERC brass. Period.
     
  11. tyeo098

    tyeo098 Member

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    I may be running my loads too light...

    23.1gr of BL-C2-alike 846 should not flatten out primers??

    That was a starting load. I'll try laddering it up to 26.3gr to see what I get.
     
  12. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

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    In my opinion and experience, a lot of those primers show signs of excessively low pressures, backed out primers and flowing back into the firing pin hole. I also see some that look as though excessive pressures were at play. Either way, I don't see much consistency here. Were they all loaded with the same powder specs? Or did you run varied charges with them?

    GS
     
  13. tyeo098

    tyeo098 Member

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    All were the same load.

    The primers were fit very loose to the pocket (small primers), would that have anything to do with it?
     
  14. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    I have no idea why you're doing what you're doing. Are you seriously punching out unknown primers from some rejected brass and re-using them in other cases?


    The only advice I'll offer is stop what you are doing before you hurt yourself or someone else around you at that public range you're using to shoot them.


    You just started handloading like a year ago, right?

    Follow established reloading data, using known components you don't have to guess at what they are.
     
  15. tyeo098

    tyeo098 Member

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    Ken,

    Essentially what I have is 1000 rds of perfectly good factory ammo that just has a defective brass case.

    What I'm doing is transplanting everything, the powder, primer, and projectile, into another perfectly fine brass case.

    The only issue I am encountering is that I had averaged all of the powder weights and used that as the basis for my load. My first load was a tad below the average(25.5gr), for safety's sake, at 25.3gr. This is when I noticed the flattened primers and consulted the forum.

    After noting the flattening of the primers under my 25.3gr load,I reduced the load to 23.1gr, but the primers still looked flattened. I also had a 90% short stroke rate. Recently I had remembered that the primers slid into the new cases with little resistance, and was wondering if the primer backing out during firing would cause the flattening of the primers.

    Again, the only reason I'm reducing the charge was because of the issues with the flattened primers.
     
  16. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    Yeah, Amerc.

    Junk.

    You really have no idea why they're rejected. You think you do. Maybe even someone told you that's why they've been rejected. You still don't know for sure.

    Besides, it's Amerc. It's total junk.


    You've consulted the forum a lot to do these quirky experiments with unknown components. Every time you're reminded to stop with the mad scientist experiments, and learn good reloading habits. Hell you really have no clue what they're doing. You're conducting these experiments without a chronograph.


    Young man, there is no polite way to say this, but your reloading habits are deplorable. They're unsafe and dangerous to you and everyone around you when you shoot it.


    Every once in a while I come across instances like this and almost wish the hobby was a bit more regulated. I cringe to think I might be at the range one day next to someone who thought he knew it all and had just enough knowledge of how to work a press to be dangerous.

    Regardless, I imagine this is why I have life and AD&D insurance. My family can lodge a civil suit for desert.
     
  17. blarby

    blarby Member

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    AMERC rejects cases ?
     
  18. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    No, AMERC reject rounds.


    You know the stuff is junk when AMERC rejects a round. Those cheap bastards would do the same thing he's doing if there were anything worth salvaging.


    AMERC ammunition is complete garbage. Nothing about it is worth redeeming.
     
  19. blarby

    blarby Member

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    And that might explain your crazy variance in pressure signs on the primers.

    Because you are getting wildly inconsistent- and occasionally dangerous, pressures.


    You sir, are dancin with fire.



    They sell those as bulk rejects because even AMERC won't put them in a box and put them on the shelf.

    I'm gonna say that again, because it sounds vaguely important.

    They sell those as bulk rejects because even AMERC won't put them in a box and put them on the shelf.

    That should tell you something.

    Pull them all down.

    Save the powder and bullet .

    If you want to do the mexican match on the powder in fresh cases- do that.

    At least you get a bullet, and some brass you can recycle.

    I agree with Ken- you are sERIOUSLY cruisin for a bruisin.

    Ok, now I'm all kinds of confused.:scrutiny:

    I read this again, and again, and again........

    So lemme get this straight , correct me if i'm wrong :

    You are using :

    An unknown powder

    An unknown, previously seated primer

    An unknown bullet

    And damaged cases ?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  20. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    As cheap and unscrupulous as AMERC is I would not be one bit surprised if they used small pistol primers to make that rejected .223 ammo. Small rifle primers are still quite scarce, and I wouldn't put it past them to do that at all.
     
  21. tyeo098

    tyeo098 Member

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    This is EXACTLY what I'm doing!

    I'll try explaining this again:
    For 100$ I acquired 1000 factory reject Amerc rounds of 223 Remington.
    Amerc went out of business recently. (And rightly so)
    These rounds were hand inspected for physical blemishes. (So the liquidator says)
    After I received them, I hand sorted them myself based on the type of blemish.
    Around 60% the bullet was seated too far into the case, sometimes so much that you could shake the case and hear it rattle around inside.
    The other 40% the cases had split necks: http://s154.photobucket.com/user/tyeo098/media/20130726_081738_zps3deabd26.jpg.html

    Since the cases have split necks, they are unusable. I am taking all of the components out of the case this includes:
    1 55gr FMJ-BT projectile
    25gr-27gr of powder
    1 primer of unk mfg and type

    The case, which is unusable, goes STRAIGHT to my brass recycle bin, and will be exchanged for lead next time I head to the scrap yard.

    After pulling 200 or so cases, and measuring each powder charge from the cases, I have determined the average to be around 25.49gr of mystery powder.

    So what I did was I took my GOOD brass (LC, PMC, etc) and popped in the primer from the bad case, 25.3 gr of powder (as close as my auto-disk could get) and seated the 55gr projectile from the bad case on top of the good case to the exact length it was in the bad round.

    This brings us to here (as I stated before):
    After noting the flattening of the primers under my 25.3gr load,I reduced the load to 23.1gr, but the primers still looked flattened. I also had a 90% short stroke rate. Recently I had remembered that the primers slid into the new cases with little resistance, and was wondering if the primer backing out during firing would cause the flattening of the primers.

    This is VERY helpful. Thank you. It never occurred to me that pistol primers would flatten at rifle pressures. (Mainly because I've never used pistol primers in rifle rounds)
    I do have plenty of Winchester SRP myself, I can swap them out with the mystery primers and see if I still get flattening.
     
  22. blarby

    blarby Member

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    Ok, I'm following a little bit better with coffee.

    What I don't understand , amongst many things, is the wild primer signs.

    Could you try 10-20 with the same type of known primer, exact same powder charge, and exact same headstamp case ?
     
  23. tyeo098

    tyeo098 Member

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    Me neither, hence the reason for the thread.

    That I can do.
     
  24. moxie

    moxie Member

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    It's risky to use "mystery" powder. You have no idea where that average weight will land you. And no chrono!

    Reusing primers is a big mistake.

    It's also a mistake to gauge a round's pressure by looking at the primers in this case. You need a lot of data where loads are incrementally built up and observed at each level before changes become meaningful. There is no direct correlation between charge weight and flattening of primers.

    The only safe salvageable items from this fiasco are maybe the bullets, but I'd have to see them to pass final judgment.
     
  25. tyeo098

    tyeo098 Member

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    Can someone explain why reusing primers is a bad idea?
    I've popped primers our of many test/dummy/reject rounds before and have never had any issues.
     
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