Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by lee1000, Jan 3, 2010.
I'm not worthy, Master
Where do you find those little guys?
I was stuck with the exact same problem. I don't know of any single projectile firearm that will not go thru the walls of my apt. Thinking that your going to wake up in the middle of the night and make well placed shots on an intruder is wishful thinking at its worst. It would do me no good to shoot one of my neighbors in an accidental hit while trying to stop an intruder. I finally settled on an 870 rem with a 20" barrel loaded with #8 shot. Sounds weird but at the ranges that would be encountered in my apt it would hit an intruder like a one ounce solid yet loose a lot if not all of its penetration in the dry wall seperating our apts. I don't know if there are really any good choices but I do know that my neighbors don't deserve to get injured of die because I choose to use a weapon that will penetrate my walls and theirs. FRJ
Ah, responsibility. Have you tested your setup on actual drywall? I'm just curious as to its effects.
I actually get them from another forum (NE Forum)...They have the best selection that I have seen.
FRJ, I realize you are worried about over-penetration, but I would suggest something at least in the B, BB, T birdshot size and preferably No. 1 (what I use), or No. 4 Buck.
No, it will not.
Think about it. If it loses its penetration in 5/8" of drywall, it sure isn't going to penetrate flesh like a one ounce solid.
In the linked test above, #7.5 shot penetrated 5.9" (counting the deepest penetrating pellet). So assuming no bones, no intervening obstacles or limbs, and a perfect frontal shot, you've got enough depth for at least one pellet to get there.
I realize that "Don't miss" isn't the advice anyone wants to hear; but let's look at the facts:
The only way to stop a person is to shut down their brain by damaging the central nervous system directly (brain/spine) or by depriving it of oxygen to operate (circulatory system). Anything less than this leaves the choice to the attacker about whether they want to continue.
The central nervous system and vital organs are well-protected by bone, muscle and fat. Depending on the angle to the target, you may need as much as 12" of penetration to reach them on an average human male (note that is average).
Anything that penetrates 12" of bone and tissue is going to penetrate two 5/8" thick pieces of drywall and have a lot of energy left over if it misses the intended target.
Now I am not saying you shouldn't use #8 shot. I don't know you from Adam and that may be the best of a series of tough choices that suits your situation. I am saying that you shouldn't delude yourself that #8 shot is going to magically act much differently in people than it does in drywall. An interior apartment wall isn't a very substantial barrier. Heck, you can probably put your fist through both sides if you don't hit a stud. If you are adamant that what you use for self-defense not penetrate that kind of barrier, then a firearm may not be the best choice for self-defense for that scenario.
As a LEO I have seen a few people shot with birdshot. The only ones that died were executed at contact range. And even then only one died right away, the others died in the hospital from complications/infection.
We have actually had a guy shot in the head with birdshot at a range of around 30 feet and he was able to call 911, give a description of the bad guys and his location to the arriving officers and then walked himself to the ambulance when it arrived. He definitely would need plastic surgery but none of the pellets had enough mass to penetrate even a couple inches of flesh let alone any bone.
If it stops the bad guy from doing what he was attempting I'm a happy man. No need to kill just a need to stop the BG right now. I think #8's will do it with no harm to my neighbors and if it doesn't then I'll accept the consequences. Better I die defending myself than my neighbor die and I live to face the consequences. FRJ
All firearms are considered lethal force legally and have the potential to kill someone.
And besides that is kind of the dilemma... if you don't interrupt the circulatory system or the nervous system significantly, the body is still physically capable of attacking. At this point, it is the attacker's choice whether to fight, flee, stand like deer in the headlights, etc.
If you do the kind of damage where the attacker's body has no choice but to shut down, it stands a good chance of killing them.
And we haven't even gotten into the discussion of whether or not it is better (as far as stopping without killing) to shoot someone multiple times with a less penetrating round or shoot them less but with a round that penetrates deeper. Considering that each of those extra rounds represents:
A) Time that the fight is prolonged
B) Potential to miss and get a free ticket in the liability lotto
It seems there is a good argument for stopping the fight in as few rounds as possible.
Once upon a time I was taught how to win "hearts and minds." Two in the chest, one in the head. That was later improved upon as my training increased, but it is not a bad plan for an up-close attacker.
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