.223 or 5.56?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by DynoDan1, Nov 19, 2021.

  1. stillquietvoice
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    stillquietvoice Contributing Member

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    Almost any rifle will shoot 1 hole at 20 yds.

    True but I load for an AR as well in 5.56 mine shoots about 4 in at 300 yds and I hit steel at that distance every time I take it out, plus if I'm using the mil peep sight I can still group into 6 in at 300. Shot a range members red dot at 300 couldn't quite hit with that one. So I did read your post just wasn't ghsy impressed.
     
  2. DynoDan1

    DynoDan1 member

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    Yes, I know that. 20 yards is not a valid test of accuracy but at least it wasn't shooting 10" groups.
    Peep sights are useless to me. I can't see at all using them, with or without my glasses!
    My red dot is also pretty much useless for me since it doesn't magnify. That was a waste of money for me.
    I also bought a Vortex Crossfire II 1x4-24 and it did help a little bit better but not much, certainly not $200 better.
    I mounted an old Nikon scope my dad had. It's a very good scope, 4x16-44, it's just old.
    I hope it'll work for me and my AR, it worked well on my .308 bolt actions.
    What's a ghsy?
     
  3. JEBruns

    JEBruns Member

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    That was the first optic I mounted to my AR. I was not impressed with it either. I took it back and bought the Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8x24. Much better scope, especially for distance shooting.
     
  4. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    I agree, but not so for the others. Many threads on this phenomena! You too will cross over to the dark side.:)
     
  5. DynoDan1

    DynoDan1 member

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    Aw man!! Now I gotta get that one?!:)
    I've got the Vortex Strike Eagle 5x25-56 on one of my Savage's.
    It's pretty dang good.

    I'm gonna hope the old Nikon works before I go for another Vortex.
    (I'll probably get that one anyway, I'm just trying to keep my expenditures low for the time being...Dagnabit!:fire:)
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
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  6. DynoDan1

    DynoDan1 member

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    Ha!:rofl:
    Been to the Dark Side.
    Too weird and goofy.
    Plus it smells bad!!!
    My buddy Luke warned me and he was right, so was Ben!:D
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021
  7. Chuck R.

    Chuck R. Member

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    ^

    This + FMJ.

    An awful lot of AR15 accuracy is determined by what your running it in, your trigger and of coarse your optic. I spent a chit load of time trying to get both 55 and 62 FMJs to shoot sub MOA for 5 rds to use for my 3 gun match load. I even used two different 16" barrels, Faxon 5r and a Larue PredatAR, I finally got the 62grn Hornady FMJ with TAC in PMC brass to "hover" at 1MOA for 5rds. I use this load for my long match stages.

    The same carbine (both barrels) with either 69 Sierra OTM or Nosler 55 and 60 BTs easily can holder under 1 MOA for 5. My SPR build with WOA barrel and matched bolt will shoot bugholes with 77 OTM and opens up to .75" with Nosler BTs, but can barely keep 5 FMJs to MOA, seems like there's always some kind of outlying flyer.
     
  8. DynoDan1

    DynoDan1 member

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    Well, because my buddy has the exact same AR I got and he does very well with it, I'm hoping for similar results for mine.
    I'm told a 1:7 twist likes heavier and longer bullets so when I get all the gear I need/want to start reloading 5.56/.223, I'll be starting off
    with 62gr whatever's and work my way up to 70gr. somethings along with load/powder/seating tests.
    I'm in no hurry to get to that "sweet" spot but I'd like to find it before I die. For me, I just gotsta, haffsta, needsta shoot Man!!!
    I'd rather not have to go full on customizing a brand new rifle without first putting it through a fair and thorough test.
    Plus I don't expect my AR to perform as well as my bolt action rifles. I know an AR can be built or even bought that kicks a$$ but I'm not that guy.
    I'm more of a Ford Pinto guy than a Lamborghini guy. I know how to make a Pinto ****-n-git, no-one will mistaken it for a Lambo but they will respect it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  9. stillquietvoice
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    stillquietvoice Contributing Member

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  10. DynoDan1

    DynoDan1 member

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    Wow!!
    Alrighty then!

    Why did the image of a short yellow bus just come to mind?
     
  11. MarshallDodge

    MarshallDodge Member

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    There is a ton of misinformation out there about the difference between the 223 and 5.56. The biggest difference is the chamber dimensions between the two, 5.56 ammunition is typically loaded hotter than 223, and the recommendation is that it should not be shot in rifles with 223 chambers.

    There isn't necessarily a big difference between 5.56 and 223 brass. All brass has variations, and even more so from different manufacturers. You can use 223 or 5.56 headstamped brass to make either type of ammunition, and is why the reloading dies are the same.

    Reloading data from a book or online has a lot of variables. They state the primer, brass, and bullets that are being used, and then give a safe range of charges for a certain powder. Things like temperature, chamber dimensions, etc are unknown. This is why you should start at the lower end of the reccomendation and work your way up to find out if your combination will work with your rifles.

    If you want to keep costs down, the 55 grain FMJ and SP bullets are good but not the best for precision.

    The 52/3 grain Sierra and Nosler BTHP offer good accuracy, and excel at 100- 300 yard shooting.

    For varmints, the 53 grain Vmax is a good choice, especially with slow twist barrels.

    The heavier class bullets with a higher BC, such as the 69 and 77 grain, work great for longer distances.
     
  12. DynoDan1

    DynoDan1 member

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    Thanks for all the info!
    Yeah, what you posted is pretty much what I've learned and heard.
    My AR has a 1:7 twist rate and from what I've learned/heard, that twist rate prefers longer heavier bullets.
    I've only shot 125 rds. of IMI 62gr. green tipped 5.56 through my AR so far. They did okay but I want to reach out to 100 yards and beyond and I don't think these bullets offer that kind of accuracy.
    I'm putting together a list of stuff I'll need to start reloading 5.56.and on the list are some bullets that'll cover a range of grains and types.
    Also included on that list is powders though I've had great success with Accurate 2460 for my .308's and that's the powder I'll be starting with (I already have 12#'s of it on my shelf).
    My goal is to maximize the long distance capabilities of my AR before getting into customizing/modifying it.
    It'll be a learning curve for me I'm sure but I'm retired now and have nothing but time and a few bucks to spend on this hobby.
     
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  13. MarshallDodge

    MarshallDodge Member

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    Green tip has a poor reputation for accuracy.

    A 1:7 will stabilize 50 grain and up without a problem. Some of the thin jacketed varmint bullets don't like the faster twists and if pushed hard, will literally explode when they leave the barrel.

    Powder Valley currently has the 77 grain Nosler Custom Competition in stock in case you are looking for them.
     
  14. DynoDan1

    DynoDan1 member

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    Hmm...okay, did not know that 50gr. bullets would work well in an AR with 1:7 twist.
    Guess I'll be adding them to my list of stuff to get.
    I completely forgot about Powder Valley. Thanks for reminding me. I'll check them out ASAP!
    I got the green tip ammo because it was only what they had on the shelf.
     
  15. Blue68f100

    Blue68f100 Member

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    Did not in my gun. I actually shot out the barrel trying to find some combo that worked. 7 different bullets, 6 powders. The best group was 1.5". The same gun shot the 69gr SMK 1/2 moa for 5 shot groups.

    For that 1:7 twist barrel start with the 69gr SMK and work up if needed.
     
  16. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    You’re misinterpreting fundamentals of physics here.

    Long & heavy bullets need faster twist than shorter, lighter bullets. This does NOT mean fast twist barrels cannot shoot well with lighter bullets.

    The only problem with over spinning bullets occurs when we cross a threshold where centrifugal force exceeds the structural integrity of the material, and the bullets come apart. For many .224” bullets designed for varminting, that threshold is around 200-250krpms.

    Effectively, show me a guy who’s claiming light bullets don’t shoot well in 1:7” 223/5.56, then I can show you a guy who can’t load or shoot for ****.
     
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  17. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    After 3 pages, I’m going to recommend you take a big step back, take a breath, and look around at what’s really being stated in these things you’re reading - versus that which is being said by people which are already actually doing the thing you want to accomplish...

    Within this thread:

    OP: I’m new, and I want to learn how to reload to shoot as small of groups as possible.

    Also OP: I wanna shoot mixed brass

    :uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:

    You do you, but that isn’t how I have accomplished for many years with many rifles - dozens of AR’s included - the thing you say you want to also accomplish.
     
  18. DynoDan1

    DynoDan1 member

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    https://www.nrablog.com/articles/2017/3/how-to-pick-the-right-round-for-your-ar15-barrel/
    This is what told me heavier/longer.
     
  19. DynoDan1

    DynoDan1 member

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    1911-forum-chart.jpg

    Is the NRA full of ****?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021
  20. DMW1116

    DMW1116 Member

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    In some ways yes. The only negative they specifically mention is the self destruction of light weight bullets at high velocity. Length is the determining factor for spin, not weight as they mention. Generally with diameter fixed at 0.224”, longer means heavier, but some profiles are longer for the same weight. Some of the Hornady 75 grain bullets are long enough they can’t be loaded into a case short enough to fit a magazine and are fired one at a time.

    I have a rifle with a 1/7 twist that shoots 55 grain bullets about 1 MOA, give or take. If you spin a bullet too fast it potentially is too stable to nose down on the downhill side of its trajectory, but you have to shoot a really long way. I don’t think 300 yards or less is applicable. Also remember that is about a one page article for beginners about a subject that has decades or more of research.
     
  21. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Yes.

    As long as you’re not destroying the bullet with excessive spin, then “over stabilization” is largely a pile of crap - especially within the context of a 16” AR.

    If you’re seeking one hole groups with your 16” factory AR carbine, the first and most productive step is to stop shooting a factory 16” AR carbine. But you can shoot anything from 50-77grn out of that rifle and any given bullet weight has as much potential to group as effectively as well any other.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021
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  22. Gone Hiking

    Gone Hiking Member

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    I probably have 2K of PSD brass that I've saved from PMC X-Tac.

    https://pmcammo.com/product/x-tac-5-56k/

    It's good brass that I use exclusively for my match ammo. For 5.56/.223, I only shoot saved brass and range pickup since it's so common. I'm particular and sort all my brass by head stamps. Brass thicknesses and volumes vary, which affects consistency and possibly even safety if you're loading to max. I tend to shoot one type of brass for each purpose. Lake City is the most common as range pickup, so that's what I use for general range ammo. I cut Federal down for 300 Blackout, etc. It's just one more thing that helps with consistency and makes it easier for me to know what I use it for. All the oddball brass I collect and all the cruddy and end of life stuff gets loaded mildly, with a big black X marked across the case head. I use that stuff when I just need ammo to go bang (close drills and similar training) or won't be able to retrieve the brass (grass, snow, etc.). That's my system, anyway.
     
  23. DynoDan1

    DynoDan1 member

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    I'm not saying that the info folks have provided isn't valid or worth considering.
    But there are some fundamentals that have always been...well, fundamental.
    It's like asking 10 weatherman when will the sunrise and you get 11 different answers.
    I take a some advice here, I take some from there.
    Mostly I'll take the advice from my buddy who has the same AR I have and start from there with my
    own tests and evaluate them as my AR and I perform.
    It seems some folks get their panties twisted up in a knot when they think I'm not listening to them.
    I am listening, I may disagree or question some things that are said but oh well, boo hoo!
    Grow some!!!

    If the time comes and someone wants my nickels worth of advice, I'll never tell anyone how to do whatever it is they
    want to do, I'll tell them what works for me with what I got.
    Most folks here have done that and it's much appreciated, really, it is.
     
  24. MarshallDodge

    MarshallDodge Member

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    Out of an AR, you won't be able to tell the difference.

    You may be able to see a difference out of a benchrest rifle where everything is optimized, including twist rate, and you are trying to get that last 0.1".

    Not a great pic but here is a 3-shot group in the head of a 300 yard steel silhouette target, shot from an 1:8 twist 18" Bartlein barrel, using Nosler 52 grain Custom Competitions

    Screenshot_20211122-195350_Gallery.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021
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  25. DynoDan1

    DynoDan1 member

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    Okay, thanks for the info.
    Spending additional money for a higher level of performance is not in the cards for me....at least not now.
    If I can get 1MOA or better with my AR at 100 yards using capable bullets, then I'll be happy.
    I have my bolt action rifles for sub-moa attempts. And I was told I had to upgrade those in order to accomplish my goal.
    Well, no I don't, I've pretty much achieved my goal, now my goal is consistency.
     
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