.223 rem on whitetail deer?

[scaatylobo]

btw =

And I have helped try to find deer that were hit badly [ some not so badly ] with a 12 bore slug.Lost more than a few !!!!.

Shot placement and the RIGHT to challenge myself is the reason I try to change it up.

I was told for decades that using a pistol was silly and not as productive as a shotgun or rifle.

Its the thrill of the hunt and the ability to do it 'your' way that made me prove them wrong.

I have not taken a shot with the handgun that did not drop a deer,and yes I passed up many.

If you want all to hunt with a cannon because YOU feel they wont take a "proper" shot then you need to petition the DEC to change the hunting laws to suit your idea of a 'correct' round.

Meanwhile I say practice and shoot what is still, your FREE right to use.

 

[holdencm9]

This is my favorite kind of thread. Lots of anecdotal evidence and little scientific or empirical. Of course, since hunters don't keep detailed logs of all the data pertaining to a kill. And even if a few did, you'd need a huge database to collect all the different results and come to any meaningful conclusions.

Obviously, the .223 can take deer. It certainly suffers from the stories like, "my buddy told me he shot a little doe right through the heart with a .223 and it took off like a dart and he lost it." When in reality it may have been a 50gr FMJ combined with bad shot placement. But your hypothetical buddy won't typically own up to the latter fact. The most important thing is that you are comfortable with taking the shot. One myth I wish would just die is the "brush gun" concept...as has been mentioned elsewhere: any bullet that hits a branch or even a twig WILL deflect.

 

[Kachok]

Oh I am not advocating a cannon either, as I have said on here many times before I have quit using my 30-06 because it will ruin the whole front half of our smallish southern whitetails at full stroke (yeah it is that bad) and my 270 WSM only comes out of the safe if I am shooting deer in WIDE open fields. My 308 likes them a bit more mild (150gr at 2700fps) so it might see some action next year, but my main two are my 6.5x55 and my 7mm-08 I don't think anyone would consider either one of those to be a cannon but I don't know anyone (except for maybe the ghost of Elmer Keith) who thinks either one of them is inadequate for deer either, no they don't set any speed records, nor do they get much press but by golly they get the job done even without perfect shot angle or close range, and do it all with a minimum of recoil, muzzle blast, and gunshot meat. I'll take that over a 223 ANYDAY!

 

[idcurrie]

It ruins the whole front half? Wow! That's new! I have not experienced that on any size game including some small fawns (these are tagged here because half die throughout the winter anyway since not enough food. Mule Deer Does have two fawns per year). Of course, because we get tags for the same time period for Moose and Elk as for deer, our rifles tend to be loaded with some strong bullets like an accubond, GMX, TSX, etc.

Perhaps it's the bullet you're using. If it's very frangible like a gameking it might cause the effect you're seeing. If you wish, you could try a bullet with a slightly stronger constitution.

any bullet that hits a branch or even a twig WILL deflect.

YES! However - that's more reason to shoot a larger cartridge.

I have witnessed my father shoot and kill a large alberta Mule Deer. When we recovered the animal, the .308 diameter 168gr TSX fired from a 30'06 was found lodged against the offside hide without expansion. The petals were all bent in a single direction and the bullet was kind of shaped like a banana. We think that the bullet struck some of the bush in between the rifle and the target and toppled. It entered the deer at, say, a 45 degree angle or worse which is why the entire front section is bent in one direction and why there was no expansion. You'd think that with no expansion such a bullet would certainly exit the animal but because it was tumbling, it had a tremendous amount of surface area to slow it down and keep it in the animal. For what it's worth, the wound channel from the tumbling bullet was actually MORE gruesome than from a properly expanded TSX. If something had to go wrong, I'm glad he was using such a capable bullet and chambering. Although the bullet had hit an obstruction on its way to target it still got the job done. Would a bullet which is less than 1/3 its size and weight have held together or had enough energy to penetrate well and make the kill? I don't know but I like the odds the 30'06 gives over 223 in this situation.


The more mass that a projectile has, the more likely it is to continue on its path when it encounters an obstacle. A bullet weighing 1/3 as much hitting the SAME obstacle is much more likely to have its trajectory altered by a greater amount and then less likely to do as much damage if it enters the game at any angle other than straight on.

 

[Kachok]

It ruins the whole front half? Wow! That's new! I have not experienced that on any size game including some small fawns (these are tagged here because half die throughout the winter anyway since not enough food. Mule Deer Does have two fawns per year). Of course, because we get tags for the same time period for Moose and Elk as for deer, our rifles tend to be loaded with some strong bullets like an accubond, GMX, TSX, etc.

Perhaps it's the bullet you're using. If it's very frangible like a gameking it might cause the effect you're seeing. If you wish, you could try a bullet with a slightly stronger constitution.



YES! However - that's more reason to shoot a larger cartridge.

I have witnessed my father shoot and kill a large alberta Mule Deer. When we recovered the animal, the .308 diameter 168gr TSX fired from a 30'06 was found lodged against the offside hide without expansion. The petals were all bent in a single direction and the bullet was kind of shaped like a banana. We think that the bullet struck some of the bush in between the rifle and the target and toppled. It entered the deer at, say, a 45 degree angle or worse which is why the entire front section is bent in one direction and why there was no expansion. You'd think that with no expansion such a bullet would certainly exit the animal but because it was tumbling, it had a tremendous amount of surface area to slow it down and keep it in the animal. For what it's worth, the wound channel from the tumbling bullet was actually MORE gruesome than from a properly expanded TSX. If something had to go wrong, I'm glad he was using such a capable bullet and chambering. Although the bullet had hit an obstruction on its way to target it still got the job done. Would a bullet which is less than 1/3 its size and weight have held together or had enough energy to penetrate well and make the kill? I don't know but I like the odds the 30'06 gives over 223 in this situation.

165gr Sierra Game King at 2,900fps 37 yard shot on a small southern whitetail, went in through the front of the neck and splat, bambi all over the place, both front shoulders and the front half of the backstrap gunshot and peppered with bullet fragments, exit wound was the size of my 9.5 boot, the damage was so extensive we had to hang the poor thing by it's hind legs to skin it since skin was the only thing holding it's head on. Yeah I call that just a wee bit excessive.

 

[Art Eatman]

Getting drifty. Absent something sorta new, this thread won't last much longer...

 

[idcurrie]

165gr Sierra Game King at 2,900fps 37 yard shot on a small southern whitetail, went in through the front of the neck and splat, bambi all over the place, both front shoulders and the front half of the backstrap gunshot and peppered with bullet fragments, exit wound was the size of my 9.5 boot, the damage was so extensive we had to hang the poor thing by it's hind legs to skin it since skin was the only thing holding it's head on. Yeah I call that just a wee but excessive.

I had a feeling that it was a bullet like that. It's not really surprising. That's a very high velocity for that bullet. It's not really rated for that speed. It's actually a very hot load for that '06. If you plan to shoot through both shoulders, you should probably load up a more stout bullet, particularly at those velocities - or lower your velocity to match the characteristics of your bullet -

DON'T SHOOT IT IN THE MEAT! (sorry couldn't resist)

 

[Kachok]

I had a feeling that it was a bullet like that. It's not really surprising. That's a very high velocity for that bullet. It's not really rated for that speed. It's actually a very hot load for that '06. If you plan to shoot through both shoulders, you should probably load up a more stout bullet, particularly at those velocities - or lower your velocity to match the characteristics of your bullet -

DON'T SHOOT IT IN THE MEAT! (sorry couldn't resist)

Not my idea, my brother wanted something for the 06 he could hunt with or blow yotes to pieces with, well I gave him just that only it worked a little too well, going to try and back that down a couple hundred fps and see if that cuts down the meat damage, right now it is really extreme on close shots, like I was saying you don't need a cannon on deer either in fact it can sometimes be downright wasteful.

 

[idcurrie]

....especially if you shoot it in the meat.

 

[Lj1941]

This thread started out good but~~~~~

 

[Arkansas Paul]

This thread started out good but~~~~~

But it went down the same road it has the other 48574892043875620489 times it's been discussed.

 

[Kachok]

But it went down the same road it has the other 48574892043875620489 times it's been discussed.

Yep some people wanting to promote the 223 as some kind of perfect legendary deer slayer and other people like me trying to give the AR fanatics a reality check or at leased make sure they understand the limitations before a bunch of them go to giving hunters a bad name. I have nothing against ARs/M16 or the 223/5.56x45 goodness knows between the Army and law enforcement I have sure used enough of them.

 

[Sav .250]

If your DNR says it`s legal...........

 

[BoilerUP]

Yep some people wanting to promote the 223 as some kind of perfect legendary deer slayer

Not once has a single person written or even insinuated that in this thread.

 

[j1]

Shoot a heavier slower bullet. Less expansion.

 

[jrdolall]

I haven't read a single post claiming that the .223 is the best deer round available. I have read multiple posts from people claiming that they have been very successful taking deer with the round. There are a couple of people that just insist on pointing out that it is either inadequate(despite the claims by many) OR that there are much better options.

One thing we all agree on is that it is probably not the absolute best caliber for deer hunting. MOST agree that it is perfectly adequate assuming proper shot placement and bullet selection. My personal opinion is that the 30-06 is BY FAR the best cartridge ever made for deer.

I bet the 30-06 vs everything else topic has never come up.

 

[Kachok]

While I would agree that the 06 is a good one you don't need that much either, I have had acceptable results with calibers as small as a 243 and I would comfortably hunt with a moderately powered .257-.284 cal without feeling handicapped at all.

 

[ngnrd]

My personal opinion is that the 30-06 is BY FAR the best cartridge ever made for deer.

I think I hear Jack O'Connor rolling in his grave...

 

[jack44]

If there a steady rest to lay the gun on take a head shot!

 

[Art Eatman]

jack44, I figure this poor ol' hoss feels like he's been hit with way too many head shots.

Nuff fer this go-round. Rest assured it will come up again.