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.223 Timbs for the CZ-52, any other rounds like this one?

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by machinecraig, Sep 18, 2009.

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  1. machinecraig

    machinecraig Member

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    Greetings! While reading up on Tokarevs and CZ-52s, I stumbled on the .223 Timbs cartridge. :what: Are there any other handgun cartridge loadings that are similar (and hopefully commercially available) - where a smaller caliber bullet with sabot is moved at much higher velocity?

    Also - it seems like every post I've raid on the .223 Timbs says it should only be used in a CZ-52. Is the CZ-52 really that much stronger than a Tokarev?

    FYI - here's a picture of the round from the site linked above:
    223Timbs.jpg

    And the text from the description:
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
  2. amd6547

    amd6547 Member

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    The "CZ52 is stronger than a Tokarev" line has been proven to be a myth.
     
  3. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    A CZ52 doesn't even fire from a locked breech. There is also less material around the chamber. A Tokarev should be a good deal stronger.
     
  4. machinecraig

    machinecraig Member

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  5. Col. Plink

    Col. Plink Member

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    Not sure what the above definition of 'locked breech', as the CZ52 is as locked as any semiauto can be and has roller locks. Some also claim it is 'cut' into the bore to achieve this design, which is inaccurate (the claim, not the design).

    Wish I could answer your question; do you have something you can paste-in about the round you mentioned? It's a sabot Tokarev round? Sounds zippy!
     
  6. GunTech

    GunTech Member

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    The CZ is a delayed blowback, not a locked breech.

    As far as the 223 Timbs, we were putting sabotted 22 bullets in 30 carbine cases 20 years ago. Accuracy tends to suck.
     
  7. eldiabloe1

    eldiabloe1 Member

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    Load that thing up with an SS109 bullet and it would be close to or better than the 5.7 if it could hold a descent group.
     
  8. jdh

    jdh Member

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    Not according to Wikipedia
    "The vz. 52 pistol is a roller-locked short recoil-operated, detachable box magazine-fed, single-action, semi-automatic pistol firing the 7.62x25mm cartridge."
     
  9. RedAlert

    RedAlert Member

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    How does the barrel rifling affect the SABOT? Sabots have been used for years in smooth bore shotguns and shotshells are not recommended in rifled barrels because the they end up like twisted knickers.

    So, is there any special feature of the rifling in the CZ?
     
  10. anewconvert

    anewconvert Member

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    I was thinking the same thing. Wondering if a smooth bore would work better.


    BC
     
  11. Brian Williams

    Brian Williams Moderator Emeritus

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    That Sabot was originally designed to be shot in the 308Win/30-06 cartridges, the sabot has enough twisting and shearing strength to handle the rifling
     
  12. dogrunner

    dogrunner Member

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    Really like to know what charge and powder is used to gain function with that sabot.

    Tried multiple concoctions with my '52...........including various bullet weights. Most charge levels that would even BEGIN to function the gun were way out of the ballpark as far as I was concerned. NEVER could get a sabot'd loading to function reliably!

    I'm aware that Reid (sp) was offering a .22 caliber bbl for a necked down 7.62X25 but not sabot'd rounds themselves.

    Those attempts even included various powered recoil springs...........suggestions?

    Incidentally, accuracy with my attempts wasn't at all bad.......at least equal to the surplus stuff I had on hand.....just sorta impractical to have an autoloader that isn't.
     
  13. .45Guy

    .45Guy Member

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    Perhaps the roller delayed blowback operation of the 52 is the reason for the sabo loads being expressly reccomended for it. Perhaps they don't have enough oomph for a locked breech recoil operated pistol such as the Tokarev?
     
  14. jon_in_wv

    jon_in_wv Member

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    You guys are making a mistake on this "locked breech" stuff. The Tokarev is no more locked than any other semi auto (short of a strictly blowback auto like most 380s) including the CZ 52. The tokarev functions like the 1911. The recoil lugs engage the slide and the slide and barrel travel back a short distance together until the barrel is tilted down and out of engagement with the slide by the barrel link. The CZ52 uses two rollers that perform the same purpose by mechanically engaging the slide to keep the barrel and slide moving together until the rollers enter a recess and allow the the barrel to move seperately from it. Its the same operation, just a different way of accomplishing it. At least thats my understanding.

    Did that make any sense? I was trying to watch the end of a movie while I typed that.
     
  15. jon_in_wv

    jon_in_wv Member

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    From Wikipedia, they explained it a little better than I did.
     
  16. capttom

    capttom Member

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    I'd never heard about this cartridge before, but this is the second time today it came up. The Sept. 20 issue ofShotgun News has a David Fortier test of a 7.62x25/.30Tok/7.63 Mauser upper for the AR-15. Yowzer! It pumps out the 7.62 mil-surp rounds at 1800+ fps and Wolf commercial loads at almost 1700. This is with the more or less standard 86 gr bullets. The .223 Timbs didn't cycle the action of the converted AR, but 55 gr FMJs hit almost 2750 fps.
    BTW, Fortier opines that the Tokarev, especially the M 57 iteration from Yugoslavia, is fair. He says the vz 52 is "a real homely dog." He's wrong, but I won't call him out. Gentlemen can disagree and he's no doubt a whole lot more combat and gun savvy than I am!
    The Ronald Williams-RMW Xtreme upper lists for $699 and requires a $50 magazine adaptor. It feeds from PPSh -43 mags.
     
  17. wheelgunslinger

    wheelgunslinger Member

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    The timbs is a neat concept. I have yet to even see any of them for sale in a pre-packaged box of ammo.

    I've been looking for a while.
     
  18. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    Why do people on this forum have so much trouble understanding the difference in delayed blowback and locked breech?
     
  19. eatont9999

    eatont9999 Member

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    Not the Tokarev vs. CZ-52 fight again! I have difficulty seeing this sabot round being accurate. I don't think I would put that in my CZ-52 or Tokarev. Don't blow your face off, man. Not worth it.
     
  20. capttom

    capttom Member

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    From jerkface11: Why do people on this forum have so much trouble understanding the difference in delayed blowback and locked breech?

    I can't swear to it, but I believe H & K described the original P9, which had the same lock-up as the vz 52 as delayed blowback. I don't see it, myself. Anyone who fieldstrips the CZ knows that those rollers really lock into the slide.
     
  21. memyself

    memyself Member

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    CZ52 7.62 x 25mm

    It is a wonderful firearm. It has a miniturized roller lock system, like HK rifles. It does have an extremely tight lock-up, between the slide, and the barrel.
    I have had the honor of shooting the HK91 7.62 NATO rifle (2 different ones), and help clean them up. They have the same system, in the G-3 assault rifle, and the HK93, in 5.56 NATO. Very hearty, and FUN systems. Bought this pistol at a Gun show, about 15 years ago, for $100.00, brand new. The sear sheared apart, about 9 months later. Ordered 2 new ones from the Chech republic, and got them about 6 months later. No problem since!!!
    My home protection!!! Corrosive ammo is cheap, but the short barrel is easy to clean up. I have since bought 2 new barrels, and firing pins, from The Sportsmans Guide for Cheap!!!. A while back, I bought a 9mm barrel from The Sportsmans Guide, but it needs long, heavy bullets, in the 9mm rounds, to function correctly. I have a 1911 in .45 and .380, and .38 special, various .22
    pistols, and a Ruger Super Black Hawk, in .44 Mag with a 10.5 inch barrel. The Ruger is just too big for home protection. The CZ is cheap to shoot, and it can mess you up!!! But it is always bullet placement, that counts. Oh!!!, I also have a Mossin Nagant, and purchased a sleaved insert from, The Sportsmans Guide, that will insert into the 7.62 X 54 Russian barrel, but shoots the 7.62 X 25 Tokerev round. CHEAP and FUN!!!
     
  22. max popenker

    max popenker Member

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    Absolutely not the same
    the P9 has stationary barrel and 2-part breechblock withing the slide assembly. The Vz.52 has recoiling barrel and single-piece breechblock/slide
    the Vz.52 action is essentially the same as in MG-42 / MG-3 machine gun

    speaking on the saboted .22/.30 concept, i would like to see same applied to .30 carbine ;)
     
  23. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Exactly. The Vz.52 is a locked breech short recoil gun.

    Roller delayed either uses a 2-piece barrel and chamber assembly or a multi-piece bolt/breechblock that contains the rollers, in which the cartridge case begins backing out of the chamber and pushes the tapered inner piece of the bolt/brechblock back until the rollers on the outer section can fall inward and unlock from the receiver/barrel extension.
     
  24. collector rob

    collector rob Member

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  25. Bohemus

    Bohemus Member

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    From what Ive read vz.52 si actualy weaker because it was originaly 9mm pistol(ČZ 491) converted to 7,62 tokarev (ČZ 513). Thats the reason there are 9mm interchangeable barels.
     
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