.223 vs .308 for CQB

[rangerruck]

oh yeah, 308 in a room, very loudy.

 

[gsgeno]

.

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

this guy qualifies

for the macho post thread. . . .

223 to the head will kill someone just as fast as a 308 to the head it really depends on if the person behind the gun can get it there.

blah blah blah my gun this, my gun that, my best this, and I know it all . . . because I watch the military channel

ps - although, since you have made 2 posts, I do extend a warm welcome, and hope my feelings don't offend your sensitivities *awwww*

 

[High Planes Drifter]

quote:
223 tumbles when it hits flesh... heres my setup
AR15 100rd drum 11.5 heavy machine gun barrel 5.5" flash hider...(cal crap) flat top with flip up sights bi pod and allot of other tactical mods....
http://hotimg1.fotki.com/photo?u=/b/...0/IMG_3299.jpg
going to build (feb 07): FN FAL metric 24" fluted 10rd mags and a huge scope.
going to buy... for home protection "Thunder Five" http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~drolfe/america2.jpg
these all have a purpose. close combat and long rang.

A 233 round should not be use for home protection. if i live near you.. you will kill me along with who broke into your house. 223 test have shown it can penetrate cinder block!
--------------------

I dont get it In the first sentence of your post you said you use an AR15, yet in the last paragraph of the post you suggested that .223 should not be used for home defense.

BTW, can you provide a link to the site that tested .223 against cynder block, I'd like to see that.?

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

223 tumbles when it hits flesh... heres my setup
AR15 100rd drum 11.5 heavy machine gun barrel 5.5" flash hider...(cal crap) flat top with flip up sights bi pod and allot of other tactical mods....

223 to the head will kill someone just as fast as a 308 to the head it really depends on if the person behind the gun can get it there.

C'mon guys, you have to admit...its cute.

But generally speaking, ninja's usually are.

 

[kir_kenix]

everybody always tries to throw that "head shot" kill equation in there. well ya, a headshot kills or, at the very least, "incapacitates". thats pretty much a given. in cqb and other close quarter work you dont aim for the head...the head is SMALL compared to the chest area. i dont know about everybody else, but we were trained center of mass for that kind of work.

having said that...i think that the .223 is fine for most work (especially cqb), just not so much w/ ball ammo. i would use something (anything) that would expand and leave a hole bigger then 556. sure a shot w/ a .308 is going to do more damage, but inside your house you are better off landing more hits then bigger ones. outside, in the open, .308 hands down.

 

[gsgeno]

.

 

[wcwhitey]

I have often pondered this question myself. My battery includes a DPMS Low Pro Classic with flip down sights and Hoque free float tube and grip. Will hold +/- and inch with most ammo. It is short and reasonably light given the 16" barrel. Also have a Springfield M1A, the gun doesn't wake up till the distance goes out to 200. I have had most of my training with this gun, so I am probably the most comfortable with it's mechanics. They sit next to each other in the gun locker both eager to go. If the SHTF there would be some pause before I grabbed one or the other. I quess it just really depended on the situation. I do think that either one is capable of handling most any situation there is, just don't confuse yourself like I did. Lots of practice could make any advantage/disadvantage of style or caliber pretty much dissappear. Oh yea did I mention that 3rd in the row is the Remington 870, now I am really confused. Bill

 

[C-grunt]

I have seen quite a few 5.56 and 7.62 wounds. For the most part, the only way to tell which was what was to look at the casings lying on the ground. 5.56 works!!! Especially at close range. It does a pretty good job at piercing vehicle bodies too though 7.62 does do it better. Also, a 5.56 in the chest at 300 yards will kill you just as dead as a 7.62 at the same range.

Remember, there is a reason why Soldiers and Marines like the 5.56.

 

[Limeyfellow]

The .308 is a great round but really for home defense and cqbs the .223 is a much better choice. Now if you were also going to take deer and larger animals sure. Against people at realistic targets the .223 will do the job, be lighter and handier with less recoil and sound.

The .308 will give you much better range I admit, but you try explaining to the police how the 500 yard shot was self defense. Now if it was a civil war and you part of a guerilla warfare group than the .308 would be quite nice and handy. If you were targetting very light armour too you be better off with a .308 armour piercing round.

Still will never give up a fal, but it was really overpowered when it was forced to go to 7.62mm nato round. Now if someone would put out a fal in a round it was designed for closer to 7mm (perhaps 6.8spc) that would be a fantastic rifle in a smaller compact form.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Having both, I'll say you could do w/ either.

I'd also say that given a choice, I'd much prefer .223 for a situation I *know* will be CQBish, and of limited scope & duration.

If it's a "head for the hills!" situtation, where you have no idea how long you'll be gone or what you'll run into, I'm taking the .308.

 

[treebeard]

I will go with the .223 and that's all I am saying.

 

[Simonovfan]

.223 in close. .308 at range. Personally, I'll choose my 7.62x39 for long term survival in the hills. It's plenty fine for deer or two legged predators.

 

[cracked butt]

It depends on the situation-
If you will be fighting blue-helmeted ninja grizzly bears, the .308 all the way.
If you will be fighting hordes of zombies at close range and need to make quick head shots and need more magazine capacity, the .223 really shines.

 

[usmcdoc14]

can I choose neither?

ok, if I could ONLY choose either

308, preferably a short or para FAL, EOTech/aimpoint, a light and that's it. No 100 round drums, no bipods, no vert fore grip, no 20 feet of picatinny.

QCB you have a moot point with both rounds. You are going to have to select a good round in either to prevent overpenetration. But my key points are I do NOT ever like to be undergunned. Also not all "homes" are made of wood.

Spalling of .223 vs .308 tells me what I would rather have

 

[Jenrick]

For plinking: Depends on the range you plink out, .223 is limited to about 600m of solid ballistics, though you can go out to 800-900 with the right equipment and practice. .308 is good all the way to 1000+. All lot of this depends on the rifle of course. A bone stock FAL and M-4 aren't 800m rifles. Cost wise .223 is cheaper.

CQB/Home Defense: At these closes ranges, it's a toss up. A .223 might over penatrate less, but it'll still over penatrate. Both will put a man down properly placed, and both have enough energy to turn multiple marginal hits into a serviced target. Realistically which ever platform you handle better and can react faster with is the best. If you have a faster first round time with a .308 use it over a slower .223. Followup shoots only count if you're not down and out too. Also at those distances followups from both a .308 and a .223 are about the same in a practical view (not countings 1/100ths of seconds and such).

SHTF: Are you bugging in or out? If bugging out, then a .223 is usually lighter, and you can carry more ammo. It's effective on all game smaller then medium deer, and with good placement is effective well into the elk sized game (remember, a .22LR has taken the African Big 5, it's much more about the shooter). As a long range anti-personal cartridge, it'll be effective out to 600m or so with the right weapon. A .308 is heavier and will give you less carry capacity. It is effective on pretty much all North American game. As a long range anti-personal cartridge, if you have the right rifle and the right skills, 900m+.

If bugging in, ,.223 is probably cheaper to stock pile. Both calibers will be equally effective in maintaining security around your residence unless you have 600m+ lanes of fire. .223 ball will penetrate most things fairly well, as will .308 ball. The edge probably goes to .308 in straight barrier penetration.

Overall, either one is a fine round. Find what you enjoy shooting more, and are more proficent with. Then purchase accordingly. If you end up with an AR and FAL, the folks here will be more then happy to take the unused one off your hands.

-Jenrick

 

[HorseSoldier]

Still will never give up a fal, but it was really overpowered when it was forced to go to 7.62mm nato round. Now if someone would put out a fal in a round it was designed for closer to 7mm (perhaps 6.8spc) that would be a fantastic rifle in a smaller compact form.

DSA makes some of their hunting models in 260 Remington, if I'm not mistaken. I've been curious about what a tactical carbine chambered for that round would do -- a little burlier than 6.8mm SPC, but still not as over-powered as .308. The $$$$ aspect of setting that up and running it on the range has stopped me from really looking into it.

 

[DMK]

Take a look at the Ballistic Gel pics on this page: .308 110gr TAP, .308 155gr. TAP, and the 5.56mm 77gr.

 

[AndyC]

For those of you who have taken formal CQB training, you'll appreciate how physically exhausting it is when done properly; each person will differ in what they can handle. Use whatever rifle you prefer as long as you're able to wield it safely, efficiently and effectively.

 

[Squidward]

I like .223. So it is better! (for me)

 

[ForeverArmed]

I like 5.56 NATO for home defense, mainly because of the steel core. The low recoil is also handy, and bullet fragmentation in tissue can leave impressive wounds.

If common criminals were all I was concerned about, then I'd stick with a 12 gauge and nothing else for home defense. But the Second Amendment is about shooting government thugs who kick in your door to haul you off to prison (or worse) just for exercising your Constitutional rights. Such a SHTF scenario can happen (it happened to the people at Waco, for example). If you ever have to shoot someone wearing heavy body armor, steel core ammo is nice to have. It's an NIJ Class IV threat, compared to Class III for 7.62 NATO (which is lead core).

If 7.62x51 were readily available to civilians in steel core, then I'd choose that. And since 7.62x51 is clearly the better long-range round but can also work effectively at short ranges, I think it's the better all-around round.

 

[toecutter]

I have to admit, I never considered the .308 as a "CQB" gun. Every time I've ever seen it done it ended with a lot of "wow I'm never doing that again".

I was helping out a friend (who does law enforcement training) with a few groups from our local boys in blue. There was a lot going on that day, and most of the groups up there had obviously gotten thier homeland security money.

One group had gone out and bought a bunch of socom (the 1's) for thier "tacti-cool entry team". Another had bought a bunch of suppressed full auto 9mm ar's. Others just had the standard 11.5x4.5" CAR-15's.

The group with the socom 1's were towards the end of the day. The AR-15's in .223 were loud in the shoothouse, but not unbarably so. When it came time for the guys with the socom's to come in, it could best be described as a comedy of failures.

The reality of it was, you may as well flashbang yourself rather than shoot a .308 indoors, especially with something with a short barrel. Pretty much, after about 10 shots between them (1 hit, rest missed) it was prooven pretty definitively that the .308 was simply too much gun for them. It was also proven that when you have poor coordination, and let go with a "double tap" of .308 inside the entry way of a shoot house, you better be wearing both plugs and muffs, and hope you have lots of light, or you will neither hear, nor see anything ahead of you.

Last time I saw the same group, they had come back with regular AR-15's and a double helping of humbleness for the job they do. Still though, I fell out of my chair laughing when they started. After 2 shots one guy was screaming because he had caught too much muzzle blast, there was all this other commotion. and for about 10 seconds the instructor thought they had shot each other.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

.223 for sure.

 

[sthomper]

i have seen various websties with close quarters rifles....styer (.223)for one and some springfield (.308) offerings....if they are true, i dont know.

i am not sure if having a magazine release in front of the trigger is quicker or better or not.

as for caliber, i have been trying to find penetration info for .308 and .223 online....things like steel doors or brick walls etc but haven been able to find much. apparently shooting someone with either round from 10 to 30 yards (a likely cqb distance?) would likely cause death or incapacition. what common barriers in urban settings would the .308 have a better chance at getting thru and is that likely enough to occur in a way that offsets the extra ammo/lower recoil characteristics that one can carry in the .223 caliber. perhaps someone makes those decisions currently for various security forces. i dont know.

if armed personell are making there way thru a cq area with fingers on the trigger then overpenetration probably isnt an issue at that point.

 

[sthomper]

many say something about .223 bullets tumbling or fragmenting within certain ranges and increasing their lethality. if it fragments thru a barrier that would seem like a loss of mass and energy. if it only fragments once thru flesh then perhaps two reduced energy projectiles do more damage. but i am not sure about the claims of .223 ballistics on impact. a video of .223 passing thru wood block didnt show any fragmenting.

sadly, many on these forums dont do accurate info. often deliberate falshoods.