.223 Wylde and a load of malarkey?

[daniel craig]

To start: I’m not really an AR guy. I know enough to shoot them, work on them, correct malfunctions and other minor things. I don’t build them, I don’t compete with one and I don’t try to squeeze every picometer of accuracy out of them.

Keep that in mind for the following:


I was at work at the shop/range yesterday when I overheard a coworker telling a guy he’d be better off building an AR in 223wylde vs 5.56. In his mind, while a 5.56 chambering will shoot .223 a .223wylde chambering will provide more accuracy. To me, the way he explained it sounded like a bunch of marketing malarkey so I went home and did some research. I can’t find any empirical, scientifically tested evidence (just anecdotal) to support his claim.

I was always under the impression that the only real difference between 5.56 and .223 is that 5.56 is loaded “hotter” than 223 and thus has higher pressures. I was also under the impression it doesn’t really matter in most modern AR platforms made from reputable companies.

Is there anyone here who has actual scientifically tested evidence (I don’t want your anecdotal stuff or what you heard from YouTube or what your buddy in the DeltaRangerReconSeals told you) to support the claim my coworker made about the .223 wylde?

 

[Chuck R.]

On average your co-worker is correct.

The Wylde chamber is a compromise between a 5.56 NATO and a .223. While cartridge dimensions are the same the chambers are different with different lengths of throat. The Wylde was designed to have enough lead to safely handle NATO pressure while decreasing the amount of bullet jump and increasing accuracy potential.

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/what-is-223-wylde/

Any AR15 I put together with accuracy in mind I use a Wylde chamber VS 5.56.

 

[film495]

I understand the 5.56 and wylde chamberings will both produce less accuracy than a .223 chamber firing .223 ammunition. So, if accuracy is the game - the tighter .223 chambering is correct. Target rifles in my limited exposure seem to be chambered in .223 not wyle or 5.56.

The theory explained in terms of accuracy of what you heard does not line up with any fundamentals I've heard, but am far from an expert.

 

[daniel craig]

On average your co-worker is correct.

The Wylde chamber is a compromise between a 5.56 NATO and a .223. While cartridge dimensions are the same the chambers are different with different lengths of throat. The Wylde was designed to have enough lead to safely handle NATO pressure while decreasing the amount of bullet jump and increasing accuracy potential.

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/lodge/what-is-223-wylde/

Any AR15 I put together with accuracy in mind I use a Wylde chamber VS 5.56.

Even the article you posted said there’s really no significant difference in results. I also have a problem with their testing methods. They used two different rifle manufacturers and two different ammo manufacturers. In order for this to be a well done experiment you really need to use as close to the same items as possible… You know control as many variables as possible… So they would need to use the same rifle manufacturer with the same model, just with the different chambers as well as the same ammunition manufacturer for both calibers.

Without doing the aforementioned things you can’t even expect to have much of a worthwhile experiment in my opinion because it’s just too many other variables in there.

 

[daniel craig]

I understand the 5.56 and wylde chamberings will both produce less accuracy than a .223 chamber firing .223 ammunition. So, if accuracy is the game - the tighter .223 chambering is correct. Target rifles in my limited exposure seem to be chambered in .223 not wyle or 5.56.

The theory explained in terms of accuracy of what you heard does not line up with any fundamentals I've heard, but am far from an expert.

See and that’s the thing I’m getting at; so much of what we “know” is literally just stuff we’ve heard.

 

[film495]

See and that’s the thing I’m getting it so much of what we “know” He’s literally just stuff we’ve heard.

This is absoutely true. I have not tested it - and probably won't, but I'll be someone on this board has, and am also interested.

 

[edwardware]

There is a relatively small difference in leade shape between .223 and 5.56. Wylde attempts to maintain the lower pressure of the long-leade chamber, and regain the better accuracy of the tight/short-leade chamber.

In the real world, the effect on accuracy and pressure is quite small. For accuracy, you won't know or care unless you're an accomplished rifleman with a very good (i.e. White Oak) barrel and premium bullets.

 

[daniel craig]

There is a relatively small difference in leade shape between .223 and 5.56. Wylde attempts to maintain the lower pressure of the long-leade chamber, and regain the better accuracy of the tight/short-leade chamber.

In the real world, the effect on accuracy and pressure is quite small. For accuracy, you won't know or care unless you're an accomplished rifleman with a very good (i.e. White Oak) barrel and premium bullets.

It makes me wonder if your standard average person shooting an AR can even take advantage of the minimal savings in accuracy.

 

[jmorris]

If you are at a bar or a gun shop, it’s not a bad idea to be skeptical of the stories you are told.

...you can’t even expect to have much of a worthwhile experiment in my opinion because it’s just too many other variables in there.

Why I often test things myself as my results are the only ones that matter to me anyway. Also why I have exactly one upper in .223 in Wylde.

The reason it’s going to be hard to find empirical evidence is because, for whatever reason, some barrels might shoot great with the bullet jammed into the rifling while others might prefer a jump. I could go grab two I have and a range of ammunition (identical except seating depth) and go out back and prove that right now.

 

[Varminterror]

I was always under the impression that the only real difference between 5.56 and .223 is that 5.56 is loaded “hotter” than 223 and thus has higher pressures.

This impression is incorrect, so assumptions based upon this impression are inherently flawed.

 

[daniel craig]

This impression is incorrect, so assumptions based upon this impression are inherently flawed.

… And that’s why we’re here… Got anything else to contribute?

 

[Varminterror]

It makes me wonder if your standard average person shooting an AR can even take advantage of the minimal savings in accuracy.

I can’t pretend to be anything more than your standard average person, but when I shoot an AR, I can take advantage of the difference between chambers.

 

[Chuck R.]

Guys,

I'm only paid to do research at work, but it seems that the guys that put together match grade rifles favor the Wylde chamber VS 5.56. Wilson's take:

The .223 Wylde is a hybrid .223/5.56 chamber designed by Bill Wylde to yield the accuracy advantages of the match .223 Remington commercial chambering, but without pressure or reliability failures when using high velocity 5.56 NATO spec ammunition. The .223 Wylde achieves better accuracy by having a chamber throat that is tighter than 5.56, but will still function reliably with military 5.56 ammunition because the case dimensions are the same. These facts lead to the .223 Wylde having superior target and varmint accuracy, a compatibility with all .223 and 5.56 NATO ammunitions, and being a top choice for competition shooters.

https://www.wilsoncombat.com/223-wylde/

WOA, who makes match barrels and rifles also uses Wylde chambers in their barrels, Bartleins, and Kreigers:

https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?barrel_blank=279&q=Wylde

The White Oak A4 Service Rifle Upper is perfect for the new CMP rules allowing the use of optics in Service Rifle matches. This upper is the same White OakAR15 Service Rifle Upper we have become known for, it has a 20", 1-7 twist barrel with a ½-28 threaded muzzle and flash hider.

This upper has been fitted with a Geissele MK7 Rail, instead of our normal handguards.

• -.223 Wylde Chamber
• -White Oak Precision CMP legal float tube
• -Includes complete bolt carrier group and charging handle

Compass Lake, also produces match barrels either use their proprietary CLE chamber or Wylde chambers for their match barrels:

Chamber http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf
The CLE match chamber is basically the same as a .223 SAAMI spec chamber with a modified lead angle in the throat. The CLE chamber has a 1.5 degree lead angle per side where the .223 is over 3 degrees. This allows for less bullet jump with out of the magazine ammo yet still providing an advantageous lead angle for modern high ballistic coefficient bullets. The Wylde chamber is .002 bigger in the cartridge case area and has a longer throat.
On the average the CLE chamber will shoot 23% smaller groups with out of the magazine ammo. The CLE match chamber will give better barrel life due to the shorter throat and gives slightly higher pressure.
There has been no problem shooting PMC, Lake City and IMI .556 Rounds out of the CLE chamber.
It is ultimately up to the shooter to determine the suitability of the ammo in a particular firearm.

https://compasslake.com/product/compass-lake-engineering-chamber-info-only/

So it appears at least that some of the better AR15 match barrel makers have swallowed the "malarkey".

 

[daniel craig]

Guys,

I'm only paid to do research at work, but it seems that the guys that put together match grade rifles favor the Wylde chamber VS 5.56. Wilson's take:



https://www.wilsoncombat.com/223-wylde/

WOA, who makes match barrels and rifles also uses Wylde chambers in their barrels, Bartleins, and Kreigers:

https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?barrel_blank=279&q=Wylde



Compass Lake, also produces match barrels either use their proprietary CLE chamber or Wylde chambers for their match barrels:




https://compasslake.com/product/compass-lake-engineering-chamber-info-only/

So it appears at least that some of the better AR15 match barrel makers have swallowed the "malarkey".

I understand what you’re saying I also understand that marketing is a powerful tool and that companies who make products they want people to buy can and will say just about anything to sell a product. Which leads me to almost always take manufacturer/designer/inventor claims with a grain, or a bag, of salt.

 

[jmorris]

The .223 Wylde is a hybrid .223/5.56 chamber designed by Bill Wylde to yield the accuracy advantages of the match .223 Remington commercial chambering, but without pressure or reliability failures when using high velocity 5.56 NATO spec ammunition.

Yet that really makes it a compromise. We want it to be more like a .223 chamber but we want to run other ammunition in it.

I suppose I could take and run a reamer into the chamber of one of my .262 neck 6mm PPC rifles and be able to run a wider range of ammunition but that would be counter productive towards the accuracy goal.

 

[Laphroaig]

The Wylde chamber allows long, heavy .223 bullets to be seated longer than mag. length. I have a Kreiger .223 chamber that I can't do that; when it was new mag length (2.260") was 0.020 off of the lands. I refer to this drawing on occasion to compare .223/5.56 chambers:

http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf

 

[Varminterror]

I understand what you’re saying I also understand that marketing is a powerful tool and that companies who make products if they want people to buy cane and will say just about anything to sell a product. Which leads me to almost always take manufacturer/designer/investor claims with a grain, or a bag, of salt.

The barrel manufacturers listed above have the ability to use any reamer they choose, with no financial motivation to favor a Wylde over a 223 rem or 5.56 chamber - yet they support the use of a Wylde chamber for the reasons they’ve provided. Custom rifle builders and competitors buying custom barrels have the opportunity to choose any chamber they want, even custom reamer dimensions of our choosing, AND shoot more often with higher degree of scrutiny than the average Joe - and the guys building and winning are using specific chambers for good reason. In the case of 223/5.56, most guys choose a 223 wylde chamber, for all of the demonstrated in-field performance built on the reasons cited above.

Discussions like this are never productive when the asker is close minded, and fixed on their original premise.

 

[BreechFace]

All the Wylde chamber did is to gain back some consistency with the leade/freebore length from the 556 while still allowing 556 to run in safe pressures.

I would expect (no oranges to oranges comparison) that in regards to accuracy 223>Wylde>556 by minute differences in well machined barrels. In an AR it makes no sense in getting anything but the Wylde chamber all other things being equal it affords one to shoot 223/556 but is tighter in its dimensions which should lead to better consistency of bullet start and thus lead to accuracy over the 556.

 

[edwardware]

I can’t pretend to be anything more than your standard average person, but when I shoot an AR, I can take advantage of the difference between chambers.

lol. . . I've seen some of your shooting on this forum. It's not average.

It makes me wonder if your standard average person shooting an AR can even take advantage of the minimal savings in accuracy.

It depends on your sample set. Some shooters could do no worse if their rifles lacked sights entirely. . . on the other hand I regularly turn in 2-3 MOA groups from no-name barrels under iron sights, and that's perfectly sufficient for my use of those weapons.

 

[daniel craig]

The barrel manufacturers listed above have the ability to use any reamer they choose, with no financial motivation to favor a Wylde over a 223 rem or 5.56 chamber - yet they support the use of a Wylde chamber for the reasons they’ve provided. Custom rifle builders and competitors buying custom barrels have the opportunity to choose any chamber they want, even custom reamer dimensions of our choosing, AND shoot more often with higher degree of scrutiny than the average Joe - and the guys building and winning are using specific chambers for good reason. In the case of 223/5.56, most guys choose a 223 wylde chamber, for all of the demonstrated in-field performance built on the reasons cited above.

Discussions like this are never productive when the asker is close minded, and fixed on their original premise.

You’re points are good and I don’t disagree. I just don’t see the evidence they’re using for their conclusions and I like evidence with claims.

 

[alsaqr]

All kinds of stuff is bandied about on gun boards about .223 and 5.56mm chambers, some is trash. There are at least four different commercial 5.56 mm chambers. The JGS Wylde chamber has a longer free bore than the 5.56 mm chamber. Match barrels often have even longer free bores for use of heavier, longer bullets.

223vs556.xls (ar15barrels.com)

Most AR-15 barrels are not chambered by "gunsmiths". They are chambered by day labor. You get whatever chamber the person wielding the reamer is cutting that day.

My bolt action rifles have .223 chambers cut with my own reamer. Since 1968 i've fired a few hundred thousand rounds of M196 5.56mm ammunition in my .223 rifles. My firing of .223/5.56mm ammunition is down drastically from it's peak. Last year i fired a couple thousand rounds of 5.56mm military ammunition and 1,000-1,500 rounds of handloads.

 

[Laphroaig]

All the Wylde chamber did is to gain back some consistency with shortening the leade/freebore length from the 556

Comparing dimensions from the drawing linked in post #16, the Wylde reamer had greater freebore than most of the .556 reamers. Otherwise, not many other dimensions are different. Could the name just be to divert people's attention away from the negative connotation that .556 chambers have to target shooters?

 

[Dale Alan]

Discussions like this are never productive when the asker is close minded, and fixed on their original premise.

I agree, we are beating a dead horse here . A simple google search/links have been provided, what is so difficult to understand ?

 

[Jim Watson]

Ah, so, grasshopper, you think there are only three? Everybody has his own idea.
http://ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf

Worse, I once saw a chart of chamber cast dimensions. Few had any close relation to what was stamped on the outside. I cannot find it now, unfortunately.

I am cynical enough to think the main purpose of the Wylde chamber is to safeguard builders from liability when Bubba shoots Slobbovian Surplus 5.56 in his Super Duper Ultra Match Master rifle.

 

[weeniewawa]

This was posted by Bill Wylde himself, i can't remember where I got it, maybe even here but it explains it.