.22LR/Magnum 'stopping power'.....
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MCgunner
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And the Hornady testing... http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-45gr-Critical-Defense/
And I found a vid or two
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS_KS1U3aBk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yaGRkt1JN4
And I found a vid or two
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS_KS1U3aBk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yaGRkt1JN4
Hoppes Love Potion
Member
In my LCR-22 I carry the CCI SGB (Small Game Bullet). 40gr solid with a truncated flat head. Everybody says carry Stingers or Velocitors, but not every gun likes the high-velocity stuff. The SBG works well and shoots accurately in all my .22s - mini revolvers, lever rifle, and DA revolver. As a varmint round, it's also useful for feral dogs and other pests.
Why do folks recommend fragmenting or HP bullets in the .22 LR? IMO, there just isn't enough power there to be wasting it on making big holes.
It's better to use that energy to put holes in vital things.
I've seen JHP .22LR rounds fail to penetrate the shoulder blade of a feral house cat (literally). There is no way I'd count on it for self defense unless that's all I had.
For .22LR, I think you're best off with solids of some type.
For .22 Magnum, I can't comment. Never owned one. But a Kel-Tec P-32 has light recoil, is flat and concealable, costs $200 to $250, is probably lighter than a mini-revolver, and I personally would feel better with a .32 ACP.
It's better to use that energy to put holes in vital things.
I've seen JHP .22LR rounds fail to penetrate the shoulder blade of a feral house cat (literally). There is no way I'd count on it for self defense unless that's all I had.
For .22LR, I think you're best off with solids of some type.
For .22 Magnum, I can't comment. Never owned one. But a Kel-Tec P-32 has light recoil, is flat and concealable, costs $200 to $250, is probably lighter than a mini-revolver, and I personally would feel better with a .32 ACP.
Magnum
Just an opinion so don't get too upset. Without penetration you have NOTHING. Penetration will kill ANYTHING if it's in the right place. For example, see Bell killing Elephants with a 6.5 rifle. Or Elephants and Water Buffalo taken with a .357 magnum pistol. The .22 magnum will penetrate quite well. At least they used to years ago. Been quite a long time since I've shot any. I realize that expanding bullets increase "stopping power" however they must penetrate. If I could only have one parameter in a bullet. I'd pick penetration every time. In today's larger caliber ammo you can have both. The .22 mag has penetration in spades.
Just an opinion so don't get too upset. Without penetration you have NOTHING. Penetration will kill ANYTHING if it's in the right place. For example, see Bell killing Elephants with a 6.5 rifle. Or Elephants and Water Buffalo taken with a .357 magnum pistol. The .22 magnum will penetrate quite well. At least they used to years ago. Been quite a long time since I've shot any. I realize that expanding bullets increase "stopping power" however they must penetrate. If I could only have one parameter in a bullet. I'd pick penetration every time. In today's larger caliber ammo you can have both. The .22 mag has penetration in spades.
BADUNAME37
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I would seriously consider a .22 Rimfire Magnum for SD, only IF the gun has a high-capacity for a number of rapid follow-up shots to stop the threat. In that case, I would more than likely prefer a .22 Magnum Semi-Auto pistol, if there is such a beast.
PMR-30 that is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti9bs-7ES2M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti9bs-7ES2M
22maggie with good old winchester gray box,will flat ruin your day if its put where it should be.esspecially out of 4" or longer barrel.(preferably a bolt gun).
Ive shot quite a few critters with this cal.And would prefer not to be on the wrong end off the barrel.much better than the sharp stick.
Ive shot quite a few critters with this cal.And would prefer not to be on the wrong end off the barrel.much better than the sharp stick.
Jeff Cooper had something to say about the 22 wmr. He believed it would be a very effective self defense round. I'm sure someone out there can dig up his rationale.
As for me, I don't like to rely on rimfire ammunition and calibers when larger centerfire calibers are available. Having said that, I do carry a mini mag on occassion as a backup only.
As for me, I don't like to rely on rimfire ammunition and calibers when larger centerfire calibers are available. Having said that, I do carry a mini mag on occassion as a backup only.
seeker_two
Member
I have to agree with OJC.....in small pistols with short barrels, I prefer the .25ACP over the .22Mag.....
1. .25ACP is a centerfire round, which makes it far more reliable in a variety of enviromental conditions.
2. .25ACP FMJ bullets are far tougher than any .22Mag bullets....which means .25ACP will penetrate better.
3. .25ACP is optimized for small autopistols. It feeds & functions reliably, and you get its full potential from a short barrel. .22Mag is optimized for rifles.
In a pocket pistol, I'll pick a .25ACP or .32ACP auto w/ Fiocci or S&B FMJ every time. However, .22Mag is a good choice in revolvers with 4"+ barrels or rifles.
1. .25ACP is a centerfire round, which makes it far more reliable in a variety of enviromental conditions.
2. .25ACP FMJ bullets are far tougher than any .22Mag bullets....which means .25ACP will penetrate better.
3. .25ACP is optimized for small autopistols. It feeds & functions reliably, and you get its full potential from a short barrel. .22Mag is optimized for rifles.
In a pocket pistol, I'll pick a .25ACP or .32ACP auto w/ Fiocci or S&B FMJ every time. However, .22Mag is a good choice in revolvers with 4"+ barrels or rifles.
IDK - looking at the results of those tests from Hornady, it looks like a .22 Mag could be relied on to deliver a nasty injury from a short barrel. If it will penetrate far enough to get to vital things, it would do.
I'd carry a .22 LR if that's what I had, or a .22 Magnum. But if I'm starting out with some cash and looking for a small carry gun, you might as well consider the small Kel-Tecs or the Ruger LCP as options. I'd only stick to .22LR if there is a reason that the shooter is limited to that.
I'd carry a .22 LR if that's what I had, or a .22 Magnum. But if I'm starting out with some cash and looking for a small carry gun, you might as well consider the small Kel-Tecs or the Ruger LCP as options. I'd only stick to .22LR if there is a reason that the shooter is limited to that.
MCgunner
Member
5 ounces? I doubt it. .32 is no magnum, either. If you're going to carry a 9 ounce gun with inadequate horsepower, why not a 5 ounce? I can shoot my mini revolvers pretty well, too. No, they're not real fast on target. They are a compromise, for sure.
I really have no use for .32, couldn't care if it went away. If you're going to go that big, you can carry an LCP. Personally, I carry a 9mm or .38 and if I have to go smaller, my .22 mag Black Widow is a LOT smaller and shoots better than my 5 ounce .22 mini revolver. It has real sights. I never carry the .22LR as a primary, but it rides in my off side pocket because it can.
I stand corrected on the weight issue. I was thinking that the poly frame versus the stainless steel of the NAA's would probably give the Kel-Tec the edge, but I should have checked that first.
I admit that I have eyed up the NAA Pug .22 mag... but when finances allow it will be P-32 or a LCP for my money.
I admit that I have eyed up the NAA Pug .22 mag... but when finances allow it will be P-32 or a LCP for my money.
MCgunner
Member
There is, but if you're going to carry a gun that big, hell, just get yourself a glock 20 or something.
In defensive guns, .22s are for mouse guns carried in a pocket, deep concealment, not for primary belt carry IMHO. An exception might be for the recoil shy or arthritic shooter or something.Get the .380. Hell, I prefer 9x19, but .380 is a better choice than .32 any day of the week and the gun is negligibly bigger, hardly any difference in concealability between the two.
MachIVshooter
Member
More than the .25, but it is roughly the same as .32 ACP from handguns and well short of the .380, which can exceed 250 ft/lbs from a 3" gun using top loads.
The only .22 WMR handgun I would have confidence in for SD is my PMR-30, and only because it has proven very reliable and carries a staggering 31 rounds. That said, If I'm going to carry a full size gun (the PMR-30 is FS, albeit extremely light weight), I'll carry my 16-shot G20. I have a lot more faith in 16 rounds of 10mm than 31 rounds of .22 mag.
BLACKHAWKNJ
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Not anyone's first choice, but sure beats fists, feet and foul language. In No Second Place Winner Bill Jordan advocated an S&W Centennial Airweight in 22WMR as an ideal backup gun.
MCGunner - I am considering a LCP but I when I tried the P3AT it banged the hell out of my trigger finger during recoil. I don't mind the gun jumping around a bit - my normal gun is a 3" .357 - but a gun that does things that hurts my hand is a gun I don't what to use. The P-32 stays put and comes back on target quickly and doesn't hurt my hand.
I'd try an LCP first if possible before buying because the ergonomics of it may be better for me and eliminate that problem, but if it doesn't, I'll carry what I can shoot well.
But this is all I can stand to sidetrack this thread. My apologies to the OP.
I'd try an LCP first if possible before buying because the ergonomics of it may be better for me and eliminate that problem, but if it doesn't, I'll carry what I can shoot well.
But this is all I can stand to sidetrack this thread. My apologies to the OP.
"Stopping power" is a useless concept in firearms.
The only reliable way to stop a machine is:
Hydraulic failure
Structural failure
Electrical failure
The only instantaneous stop, energy-wise, would also cause a flattening of the user, unless you're using a crew-served weapon bolted down. Hand-held firearms have killing power caused by making holes in tissue. Any big game hunter can tell you the power to kill frequently has little relation to the power to STOP quickly. Even a good hit on a 130-lb deer should be followed by at least a half-hour wait, to give them time to bleed out. God help you, if you faced a determined attacker wielding a dangerous weapon. Remember that deer are usually taken by longarms, too, which dwarf typical defensive handgun cartridges in power.
it doesn't matter how large or small your projectile is, the only guaranteed stop is when too much fluid is gone to move, too many/important pieces are gone to move, or no commands to move can be transmitted.<-------------------- (this is a period)
As far as the damage a .22 Magnum causes, from a rifle, especially at short range, a pretty good bit. That damage inflicted reduces as your barrel length decreases.
john
The only reliable way to stop a machine is:
Hydraulic failure
Structural failure
Electrical failure
The only instantaneous stop, energy-wise, would also cause a flattening of the user, unless you're using a crew-served weapon bolted down. Hand-held firearms have killing power caused by making holes in tissue. Any big game hunter can tell you the power to kill frequently has little relation to the power to STOP quickly. Even a good hit on a 130-lb deer should be followed by at least a half-hour wait, to give them time to bleed out. God help you, if you faced a determined attacker wielding a dangerous weapon. Remember that deer are usually taken by longarms, too, which dwarf typical defensive handgun cartridges in power.
it doesn't matter how large or small your projectile is, the only guaranteed stop is when too much fluid is gone to move, too many/important pieces are gone to move, or no commands to move can be transmitted.<-------------------- (this is a period)
As far as the damage a .22 Magnum causes, from a rifle, especially at short range, a pretty good bit. That damage inflicted reduces as your barrel length decreases.
john
DNS
Member
50 grain CCI magnums have been tested out of a one inch barrel NAA Pug. Two layers of cloth over gelatin produced "16 of penetration. Sounds like a good choice to me.
Mauser lover
Member
BLACKHAWKNJ, I just read that book! Didn't he say that S&W was having problems with actually getting the airweight to work with a .22 Mag? Did they ever get the issues fixed?
I wouldn't have any problem carrying a steel cylinder in .22 Mag, as long as it is a back up gun... I am not sure that it would be my first choice for a primary carry, but as rc said, it is better than a sharp stick...
I wouldn't have any problem carrying a steel cylinder in .22 Mag, as long as it is a back up gun... I am not sure that it would be my first choice for a primary carry, but as rc said, it is better than a sharp stick...
Texan Scott
Member
personal opinion only... no facts, no numbers. FWIW.
when the life or safety of you or your loved ones is on the line, use what you have... if that's a golf club, swing. worrying about what you should have had (a benelli 12 ga auto?) will no longer help.
i pay very little attention to kinetic energy. penetration is more important, probably. i pay little attention to one-stop shot ratings... because if i'm scared enough to shoot, i'll probably pull the trigger at least three times (*click*click*click*) after it stops going bang before realizing the gun's empty.
work on putting 'em where they go. hope for the best.
when the life or safety of you or your loved ones is on the line, use what you have... if that's a golf club, swing. worrying about what you should have had (a benelli 12 ga auto?) will no longer help.
i pay very little attention to kinetic energy. penetration is more important, probably. i pay little attention to one-stop shot ratings... because if i'm scared enough to shoot, i'll probably pull the trigger at least three times (*click*click*click*) after it stops going bang before realizing the gun's empty.
work on putting 'em where they go. hope for the best.
p35
Member
I've said this before, but I once helped prosecute a shooting with a .22 Mag Single Six. Hit the guy in the hip area, passed through the pelvis clipping both femoral arteries. He lived about a minute or two, according to the ME, but ran a hundred yards during that time.
My basic feeling is that .22s kill but don't stop.
My basic feeling is that .22s kill but don't stop.
Certaindeaf
member
^ Old judge,
I was just going to say that the .25acp has about as much power as the .22 mag given very short barrels.
I was just going to say that the .25acp has about as much power as the .22 mag given very short barrels.
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