Brass Fetcher
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Does anyone know the specifics of the powder type in a 'typical' .22lr cartridge? What I am wondering is this: is it a pistol powder, rifle powder? Is it even smokeless at all?
Thank you.
Thank you.
.22lr powder
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The Bushmaster
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??? Why?
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Brass Fetcher
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Because I like to make custom loads.There's probably no canister grade powder that's a direct eqivalent to what the factory loads their .22's with. The Winchester .22 LR rounds I have dissasembled contain 1.8 (std vel) to 2.0 (hi vel) grs of powder that looks quite similar to W231.
Pistol powder. 24,000 PSI limit for both LR and Mag.
Remington Golden Bullet bulk pack is loaded with a small disc powder that appears identical to Alliant Power Pistol in grain size, color, texture, and shape, but may still be something totally different. The stuff from the pulled Remingtons doesn't smell as strongly as my can of Power Pistol, but that may be because I don't have very much of it accumulated.
Power Pistol on the left, pulled Remington Golden Bullet powder on the right. If you're really curious, I have some Federal bulk pack ammo that I could pull as well, though I probably wouldn't be able to identify it all. The only pistol powders I use are Alliant Power Pistol and IMR HiSkor 800-X.
Remington Golden Bullet bulk pack is loaded with a small disc powder that appears identical to Alliant Power Pistol in grain size, color, texture, and shape, but may still be something totally different. The stuff from the pulled Remingtons doesn't smell as strongly as my can of Power Pistol, but that may be because I don't have very much of it accumulated.
Power Pistol on the left, pulled Remington Golden Bullet powder on the right. If you're really curious, I have some Federal bulk pack ammo that I could pull as well, though I probably wouldn't be able to identify it all. The only pistol powders I use are Alliant Power Pistol and IMR HiSkor 800-X.
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Brass Fetcher
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Thank you for that info. Hi RyanM... it's been a while! If you get around to pulling a bullet out of the Federal ammo, that would be great too.
Basically, what I am looking to do is to reload a .22lr cartridge with faster burning pistol powder and perhaps make modifications to some of the .22lr bullets. The main goal, right now, is to increase the effectiveness of the .22lr mini revolver from NAA. First on that list, is to change the powder over to N310 powder - the fastest burning stuff that I have used - in the interest of not spewing out lots of unburnt powder from that very short barrel.
Basically, what I am looking to do is to reload a .22lr cartridge with faster burning pistol powder and perhaps make modifications to some of the .22lr bullets. The main goal, right now, is to increase the effectiveness of the .22lr mini revolver from NAA. First on that list, is to change the powder over to N310 powder - the fastest burning stuff that I have used - in the interest of not spewing out lots of unburnt powder from that very short barrel.
Determining what type of powder is used by appearance is not smart. Substituting a faster burning powder can create high pressures fast in a small case like a 22. There are also issues withcase neck tension on the bullet.
Your experimenting sounds like it could easily lead to disaster.
Your experimenting sounds like it could easily lead to disaster.
Chawbaccer
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How in God's name are you going to pull the bullets with out damaging them and then reseat them? I'll bet my two cents that the ammo companies do a bit of testing to determin the optimin powder to use in their cartridges.
Jim Watson
Member
Vihtavuori said 3n37 was for "high velocity rimfires" but is adaptable to pistol ammo, like IPSC .38 Super. I don't know if that means .22 LR HV or .22 Magnum - it does not mean the .17s, 3n37 was available before they came out - but it sure says .22 powder may not be as fast burning as you think.
Y'all be careful, now, you hear?
Y'all be careful, now, you hear?
The Bushmaster
Member
Oh...Just go down to the sporting goods store or hardware and buy some CCI Stingers. They are doing 1600 fps out of my Marlin Mod 81 with 22 inch barrel. I doubt that you will be able to improve on that very much without possible injury to you or the gun.
Ya need to pick a calibre that you have better control of the conditions.
Ya need to pick a calibre that you have better control of the conditions.
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Brass Fetcher
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How generous of Vihtavuori to let that one slip! In all seriousness, I appreciate the warnings, but most risk can be mitigated easily... ie, using the cheapest .22lr and a string to pull the trigger. I've done this on many occasions with my handloads in .25ACP, .32ACP .32NAA and so on. Just duct tape the gun to a fence post, offset with a soft piece of something (so that slide can function/pressure can escape) and duct tape.
It seems to me that there is some kind of taboo with experimenting with .22lr cartridges. What I am banking on is that there is no commercial reason to do something radically different from the average pistol cartridge, when making a rimfire cartridge. "If it is not broke, why spend the money to fix it" basically.
The Bushmaster, I like stingers too. But, what is the difference between a 1" barrel and a 22" barrel in terms of velocity? A lot, I would imagine.
It seems to me that there is some kind of taboo with experimenting with .22lr cartridges. What I am banking on is that there is no commercial reason to do something radically different from the average pistol cartridge, when making a rimfire cartridge. "If it is not broke, why spend the money to fix it" basically.
The Bushmaster, I like stingers too. But, what is the difference between a 1" barrel and a 22" barrel in terms of velocity? A lot, I would imagine.
For the absolute cheapest .22, get a few of these. http://facsupply.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=8919
The rifling in those is a joke, practically the whole bore squeezes down to .218", except for these pathetic little tiny grooves. And the chamber walls are paper thin, .0615" thick. Those things'd tell you pretty fast if a load generates too much pressure. Only problem would be figuring out something to fire them.
Maybe do the old shotgun shell trick again. Start out with a piece of aluminum, lathe it down to the size of a 12 gauge shell. Drill and ream out a .343" wide, 2.307" hole off-center enough that the shotgun's firing pin hits the rim. Drill a .25" hole the rest of the way, so the bullet can go out. Then .50" cbore 1" dp, so the chamber isn't supported any extra by the aluminum.
You could also try to counterbore a rim recess into the crappy barrel to support the rim. And grind off a little bit from the part that's going to face the center.
The rifling in those is a joke, practically the whole bore squeezes down to .218", except for these pathetic little tiny grooves. And the chamber walls are paper thin, .0615" thick. Those things'd tell you pretty fast if a load generates too much pressure. Only problem would be figuring out something to fire them.
Maybe do the old shotgun shell trick again. Start out with a piece of aluminum, lathe it down to the size of a 12 gauge shell. Drill and ream out a .343" wide, 2.307" hole off-center enough that the shotgun's firing pin hits the rim. Drill a .25" hole the rest of the way, so the bullet can go out. Then .50" cbore 1" dp, so the chamber isn't supported any extra by the aluminum.
You could also try to counterbore a rim recess into the crappy barrel to support the rim. And grind off a little bit from the part that's going to face the center.
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Brass Fetcher
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RyanM - you're killing me! Thanks for the link ... I see... Are these barrel sleeves for a Derringer? I like the idea. The big problem that I am seeing is that some sort of catastrophic test would likely occur - because you can't exactly read the primers on a case that doesn't use them...
Basically, the 'smoking gun' would have to come in the form of a 'pneumatic hand grenade'. I'm thinking what the key is, is to find out what powder a particularly hot .22lr uses (assuming that it is commercially-available) and then use linear interpolation and ratio to determine (using tabulated data for, say, a .25ACP) where a good start point might be with another brand of powder.
I mentioned the N310 as a candidate because I have had such great success with it in mouseguns in the past. I believe the tabulated max velocity for a 71gr bullet is about 1000 ft/sec out of a Sig-Sauer .32ACP. Using the N310, a Kel-Tec P32, Federal cases/primer and the 65gr Hydra-Shok, I got 1169 ft/sec! A maximum load with Bullseye got something like the upper 900 ft/sec range, using the same components.
Oh. Someone mentioned placing the bullets back in the case... In my experience, I have been able to pull bullets and replace them back into the cases, without too much loss of neck compression and no need to resize the cases. I like to use a Hornady collett-type puller, as it only leaves four shallow imprints on the bullet, if you do it right. Those are usually too far away from any hollowpoint cavity to affect the performance of the bullet, terminal ballistics-wise, anyhow. Impact pullers are definately out due to the shock-sensitive nature of the priming compound.
Thanks for the link ... I see... Are these barrel sleeves for a Derringer? I like the idea. The big problem that I am seeing is that some sort of catastrophic test would likely occur - because you can't exactly read the primers on a case that doesn't use them... Basically, the 'smoking gun' would have to come in the form of a 'pneumatic hand grenade'.
I'm thinking what the key is, is to find out what powder a particularly hot .22lr uses (assuming that it is commercially-available) and then use linear interpolation and ratio to determine (using tabulated data for, say, a .25ACP) where a good start point might be with another brand of powder.I mentioned the N310 as a candidate because I have had such great success with it in mouseguns in the past. I believe the tabulated max velocity for a 71gr bullet is about 1000 ft/sec out of a Sig-Sauer .32ACP. Using the N310, a Kel-Tec P32, Federal cases/primer and the 65gr Hydra-Shok, I got 1169 ft/sec! A maximum load with Bullseye got something like the upper 900 ft/sec range, using the same components.
Oh. Someone mentioned placing the bullets back in the case... In my experience, I have been able to pull bullets and replace them back into the cases, without too much loss of neck compression and no need to resize the cases. I like to use a Hornady collett-type puller, as it only leaves four shallow imprints on the bullet, if you do it right. Those are usually too far away from any hollowpoint cavity to affect the performance of the bullet, terminal ballistics-wise, anyhow. Impact pullers are definately out due to the shock-sensitive nature of the priming compound.
We all have these brainstorms about how something can be improved, but why risk injury or damage to your firearm before trying some of the stuff that is already out there. Have you tried AGUILA SUPER MAXIMUM .22 LR in solid or HP 30grain bullet going 1750fps or AGUILA SNIPER SUB SONIC a "60" grain bullet going around 1000fps. The 60 grain bullet is the heaviest of any of the .22 lr bullets. Check out www.cabelas.com or do a seach of IGUILA AMMUNITION.
Yep, those are sleeves for a derringer. I bought a few to experiment with my primer-only gun that shoots airgun pellets idea, but they're so low quality, I gave up on trying to attach them to anything.
Actually, come to think of it, given that the NAA Mini cap and ball revolvers have proven themselves perfectly safe when stuffed full of Bullseye, I guess there's a fairly decent chance that a cartridge gun would hold up with a Bullseye cartridge.
Other than that, it seems like the hottest rimfire out there is CCI Maxi-Mag +V, the 30 grain stuff. Out of a 1 5/8" Magnum Mini, the 2-gun average was 1150 fps. Winchester Supreme 34 grain was pretty respectable as well, at 1025 fps. Powder from one of them might work. I do have a box of CCI Maxi-Mag +Vs, but they were so expensive, I'm kind of hesitant to try pulling the bullets. I also see no way to get the bullet out without messing up either the case or bullet. For LRs, I just grip the case with leather-lined pliers, and yank the bullet back and forth until it comes out.
Oh, yes, and from my experiments with an NAA Companion, a full chamber (magnum sized) of Alliant Power Pistol only moves the 30 gr bullet at about 800-850 fps (calculated, based on modeling clay penetration). Given that the Rem 36 gr Golden Bullets achieve a pathetic 684 fps from a 1 5/8" LR mini (NAA's chrono data), I'd say there is a good chance that Remington bulk pack does indeed use Power Pistol.
Actually, come to think of it, given that the NAA Mini cap and ball revolvers have proven themselves perfectly safe when stuffed full of Bullseye, I guess there's a fairly decent chance that a cartridge gun would hold up with a Bullseye cartridge.
Other than that, it seems like the hottest rimfire out there is CCI Maxi-Mag +V, the 30 grain stuff. Out of a 1 5/8" Magnum Mini, the 2-gun average was 1150 fps. Winchester Supreme 34 grain was pretty respectable as well, at 1025 fps. Powder from one of them might work. I do have a box of CCI Maxi-Mag +Vs, but they were so expensive, I'm kind of hesitant to try pulling the bullets. I also see no way to get the bullet out without messing up either the case or bullet. For LRs, I just grip the case with leather-lined pliers, and yank the bullet back and forth until it comes out.
Oh, yes, and from my experiments with an NAA Companion, a full chamber (magnum sized) of Alliant Power Pistol only moves the 30 gr bullet at about 800-850 fps (calculated, based on modeling clay penetration). Given that the Rem 36 gr Golden Bullets achieve a pathetic 684 fps from a 1 5/8" LR mini (NAA's chrono data), I'd say there is a good chance that Remington bulk pack does indeed use Power Pistol.
Just for kicks what was the pressure? Max loads are not the fastest on the block but the ones giveing the most pressure. I would be very cautious trying to better factory loads without proper test equipment. I`d hate to hear down the road you are now one eyed or missing fingers over 100 extra fps......
I don`t know about 21"of barrel lenght but I do know my 18" 10-22 is faster with all ammo used to date then my brothers 26" Remington 510. The extra 8" of barrel acually slows the 22 LR down according to my Pact crony. Not always much but they are definatly slower.
The Bushmaster
Member
Very interesting Ol' Joe...I have a 10-22 also and the Marlin...I'll have to try that and see what happens, but not until this freeze lets up. Damn cold out there right now...
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