.22LR self defence

[dawg23]

Originally posted by Sgt. Dusk: It surely drops anybody with the shot in the head even from further distances

I don't know where you read or heard this, but there are many accounts of .22, .25, .32, and .380's.........and even the occasional 9mm........bullets glancing off a person's skull.

Yes, .22LR bullets will kill. But your goal in self defense is to S-T-O-P the attacker. And a .22 is a very poor tool against a determined attacker. Maybe he'll stop as soon as he sees you have a firearm. If so, great.....you stopped him.

But if he's determined, unless you have some sort of physical handicap or statute that prevents you from using a service caliber weapon, consider a .38 Special or bigger (in revolvers) and consider a 9mm or larger in semiautomatics. Even then, have a "Plan B." Because pretty much all handguns are weak.

 

[Lashlarue]

Some types of 22lr ammo have one shot stop rates as high as 40%, more deadly than many larger calibers. http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=2&Weight=All These are actual shootings not ballistic gel statistics.

 

[dawg23]

Some types of 22lr ammo have one shot stop rates as high as 40%, more deadly than many larger calibers. http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppi...r=2&Weight=All These are actual shootings not ballistic gel statistics.

Even if you believe the Evan Marshall statistics, 90-95% is a lot better than 35-40%.

Plus, there have been a lot of improvements in service caliber ammo (such as DPX and Ranger T) since the Sanow & Marshall publication.

 

[Bezoar]

The 22lr can and will kill a person. It is NOT the greatest cartridge for that purpose however. WIth the 22lr two things become paramount for you to consider.
Bullet and accuracy/placement of said bullet.

A typical pocket 22lr only has a 4 inch barrel, That means you can knock down the muzzle velocity and energy greatly. As well as downrange capability.

Example, i use a typical 10-22 carbine for my yard gun. Quick to use and accurate. I started out using the typical high velocity copper plated 40 grain bullets that seem to have a small dimple in the nose. I admit im not davey crocket by any means, but these bullets just werent working.
True if you hit them from head on, right below the chin then for some reason the bullets would literally explode the brain cavity. That never left survivors. but a hit in anyother spot would normally involve the use of a stick or rock to finish the squirrel off.
SO i switched to using solid lead bullet, and i was alot happier as these bullets would actually expand a bit in the squirrel where the copper plated stuff just wouldnt. Maybe different hardness of lead, im not sure. However i still was not satisfied with how they performed for me in the field. To many squirrels and woodchucks and occasional raccoon were needing to many follow up shots.
I ended up inheriting a couple boxes of old Remington Subsonic Hollow Points from a relative. THese things work, they are accurate and the work the action just fine. But most of all, they do serious damage to the target. Even on poor hits through vital organs on woodchuck i was leaving almost a dime size exit hole, while the rest just leave a hole barely large enough for the bullet to go through.
However its still not the miracle round for something viscious like a raccoon at short range. Hit them in the chest and they roll and get pissed off, hit them DIRECTLY betwen the eys on an angle parrellel with the spine and they blow blood out of eye/ear/mouth and die almost instantly.

Not to go pee on anyones belief or disbelief of "energy dumping" or hydrostatic shock but for all real use in a rifle or carbine length gun, the hollow points perform better, they like to explode inside body areas with a larger amount of built up fluid pressure.
Still, id rest easier if i had something larger then a 22lr in my possession at 2 am in gangland.

 

[Funderb]

Bezoar-
The remington golden bullet is a great round. Gold colored hollow point.
I shoot at rats and squirrels on the islands (NOT in town) and they go down.
However, in town I use a chinese .22 air rifle for those darn fuzzy rats,
now talk about important shot placement.


I also dropped a full grown male goat with a well placed semi-auto burst of three at about 100 yards. Felt terrible, worst meat I ever ate, one of those stupid things you do as a kid. And that was pistol match from a semi-auto rifle.
That must be a testament to the .22's effectiveness.

 

[jakeswensonmt]

If you read the personal defense stories in the first pages of American Rifleman each month you will know that the 22LR kills plenty of evildoers.

However, they usually die later at the hospital.

I read that the 22LR kills more civilians than all other rounds combined. Of course, this is not because it is a superior caliber, it's b/c everyone has one and you use what you have.

 

[Soybomb]

It surely drops anybody with the shot in the head even from
further distances

Except when it doesn't. Its not unheard of for rounds to fail to penetrate the skull, news stories of people taking something like a .25acp to the head and then saying ouch seem to pop up every few weeks. I wouldn't count on supposition, I'd look for the evidence before I bought into that.

but what does it actually do when pounded in the chest or lower torso? At least it must hurt like hell.

It might, or the person might stand and keep talking, and if they really want to hurt you an owie isn't what you hope to inflict on them. I don't believe Reagan even realized he had been shot for some minutes after. If your life depends on it do you want to rely on a round that will hurt your attacker and hopefully make him choose to stop or do you want to force him to stop as quickly as you can by "breaking his body" so to speak?

 

[Sgt.Dusk]

Okay....
I started this thread after reading stuff about
Israeli military using 22's in somekinda service.
Do any of you guys know anything about that?

 

[Fred Fuller]

Search around the web for 'Kidon' or "Wrath of God", but be careful on the Errornet as always. Or take a look at:

http://www.amazon.ca/Vengeance-George-Jonas/dp/0002007584

http://www.smallwarsjournal.com/documents/calahan.pdf

They sometimes used Beretta 70-series .22LR pocket pistols...

lpl/nc

 

[Erik]

The answer of the question starting the thread, unless I missed something, appears to be "no."

 

[CWL]

The plain simple fact is that ALL pistol calibers are not effective manstoppers. Why choose the smallest bullet of them all?

Every year or so, another story pops up about how a man wakes up in the middle of the night with a huge headache...only to discover later that his wife popped a .22 into his head while he was asleep...not good testament to a reliable SD caliber.

 

[jabotinsky]

Maybe it comes down to one's personal philosophy of whether to generally use the least amount of something you need to get the job done simply or whether it's better to have clear superiority. And also role: an LEO needs a reliable SIG .40 or better, he/she needs the reliability. Plus "manstopping" is in vogue, now we need two marketing classes of ammo in each cailber. But for the rest of us, if in an unimaginably horrifying reality in which we could possess only one gun, I think most would agree that for basic home use, including non-zombie defense, varmint eradication, plinking and otherwise, the one gun to have is a .22lr.

I rest my case and whatnot.

 

[mbt2001]

I said it in an earlier post, all calibers have been guilty of hitting in the head and glancing off or something to that effect. The Red Baron, in one of his dog fights, took a .30 caliber round right between the eyes, the bullet rode up his scalp, splitting his skin covering on his head... He had headaches for the rest of his life, but he was fine for the most part.

As Jeff White said in a recent thread, Guns are not magic wands...

Again, as I said in a recent post, .22's are often not the caliber of choice for hd / sd, but are the loaded guns at hand when the SHTF. They have shown themselves of being capable.

For the record, in the early 90's with the profusion of the "wonder nine" and it's 17 shot clips, there were plenty of stories of guys taking 10+ rounds and making it to trial. Handguns are not magic wands. Fast, accurate shot placement can be expected to aid in your fight for survival.

But you must not forget that there is a big clock in the sky and when your number is punched, .22, .177 pellet, piano falling out of a building or lightening, you will be DEAD. If you number isn't punched, none of those things withstanding, you will not be dead.

 

[obxned]

A .22 is indeed a very wimpy cartridge, but most people do not like getting shot, and dislike getting shot repeatedly even more.

 

[Hiaboo]

Wow. I gotta add this, a very few failures in rimfire/centerfire to NEVER is pretty stretching the truth in my opinion, I've only been on god's earth for 22 years and I've been shooting 12 of those 22 years here and I can say I've had plenty of cartridges that have failed rimfire or not, on the gun's part or the cartridge's part both. I honestly say last summer I may have shot around 200 .45, 50 45lc, at least 400 .22lr and a couple boxes of .223, 30 or so .44/.357 every weekend. Yes the costs are high, I buy both new and I reload. I have had misfires/failures with both. Never having one? I'm sorry but.. pfft.

As for contributing to the OP's post. I would not want to be shot, either wtih .22 or a .44 no matter. Shoot a guy close range with .22 more than likely he'll be DRT. Many unfortunate people throughout the history of the world can relate to this fact.

 

[OpFlash]

I would not feel underarmed with a short high capacity .22 carbine in a home defense situation, ideally say a Walther G22 bullpup (if they take high cap mags), but my 16" barrel 10/22 with a 25rd mag will do in a pinch. The complete lack of recoil and very low flash and report are all advantages in an indoor environment. One could put out 6-10 accurate shots in just 2-3 seconds, not a bad substitute for a 20g shotgun blast.

Other than the psychological effect of "oh crap I've been shot", the only other way bullets actually stop people instantly is with CNS hits to the brain or spine. Men have continued to function for several seconds (long enough to kill you with a knife, etc.) even after their hearts were turned to mush from a shotgun slug or high powered rifle. Now, which has a better chance of hitting your spine, 3-4 poorly aimed shots from your .45 pistol or 10 accurate shots from a .22? The .45 may stop better due to the higher initial shock and awe (oh crap I've been shot) but I beg to argue that you may have just as good if not a better chance with a .22 carbine to hit his CNS than with a .45 pistol.

As far as ammo, I would use CCI Velocitors or minimag solids. You want penetration with a .22 to reach the CNS and major organs. Rounds designed to expand or come apart quickly in squirrels like stingers (and especially quikshoks) will not have the required penetration.

To put all this in perspective however, I still would not chose a .22 carbine for home defense if I had my 9mm carbine handy. A pistol caliber carbine is also low report, flash, and recoil, and about 3 times more powerful. I think I would choose that one.

 

[dawg23]

I would not want to be shot, either with .22 or a .44 no matter.

.......but most people do not like getting shot, and dislike getting shot repeatedly even more.

Several comments like these have been posted in this thread. The fallacy is that the posters are, in all likelihood, quite rational people........unlike the attacker who happens to be high on drugs or is going through withdrawal symptoms while frantically seeks his next fix.

If you are going to rely on the mere presence of a handgun to deter an attacker, it would be less expensive to buy a replica or an airsoft pistol that looks like a Glock or a 1911.

Personally, and contrary to a comment in another post, "manstopping" has always been in vogue for me when an innocent life is threatened. However, if you are willing to attach some mystical, magical properties to your handgun (.22.... or .25,.........or even the "mighty .45 ACP"), and are confident that just owning or carrying one makes you safe, more power to you. And good luck.

 

[tnieto2004]

Lets put it this way. I have never ever had a centerfire cartridge NOT fire in all my life.

Lucky you!

 

[OpFlash]

The fallacy is that the posters are, in all likelihood, quite rational people........unlike the attacker who happens to be high on drugs or is going through withdrawal symptoms while frantically seeks his next fix.

If you are going to rely on the mere presence of a handgun to deter an attacker, it would be less expensive to buy a replica or an airsoft pistol that looks like a Glock or a 1911.

Personally, and contrary to a comment in another post, "manstopping" has always been in vogue for me when an innocent life is threatened. However, if you are willing to attach some mystical, magical properties to your handgun (.22.... or .25,.........or even the "mighty .45 ACP"), and are confident that just owning or carrying one makes you safe, more power to you. And good luck.

Another fallacy is "relying" on anything short of nuking it from orbit. The fact is the vast majority of civilian defensive uses of firearms required no shots to be fired at all. How much better are your odds when you move from a .22 to a .45 or even from no training to a Gunsite pro? Not all that much better compared to having a gun vs not having one IMHO.

 

[foghornl]

The .22 Rimfire cartridge is NOT my first choice of defensive round.

However, if my 10/22, MKII or Single-Six was what I had in hand when things went Wocka! Wocka!, well....Run Whatcha Brung.

But yeah, 6 to 10 "Stingers" in the Sinus or Ocular Cavity(s) of said miscreant should certainly give them a pause to reflect on their "Life Choices".

 

[tinygnat219]

:banghead:Why does someone always post something regarding using .22 LR as a Self-Defense round?
Yeesh, you'd think it'd be dead and buried by now.
It's an unreliable, low powered, small bullet that more often than not does not stop an attack. :banghead:

I can see about using it if it's the only thing around, but I can't see making this round your choice of self-defense round. It's absurd.

 

[woodybrighton]

mossad may use .22 silenced pistols but thats ring the doorbell target opens door agents puts pistol to temple and fires till bloke goes down.
not trying to stop a charging bad guy
ffs if you can buy something more powerful and practice with it

 

[Silvanus]

I actually felt comfortable when I only had my Sig Mosquito as HD pistol for a time. (I know it's generally an unreliable gun, but I swear that I've had only 2 jams in over 2000 rounds of Fiocchi .22lr. Every other brand though...at least a jam every 50 rounds, so I just stick to Fiocchi. That seems to be the magic bullet for this gun) I know I can put ten rounds exactly where I want them very fast. Now I have a 9mm for HD and I would not consider the .22 anymore, because there's no reason for me to go smaller than 9mm. But I would not feel undergunned with a smaller caliber if that was all I had.

We found the .22 to penetrate just as well as a round from a Mosin Nagant.

Umm...What?!

 

[AL9426]

For self defense I would probobbly use a pistol of some sort or a shotgun. The good thing about the shotgun is that it's enough to hit someone without being able to get a great bead on them as you would need with a 22.lr. And with a pistol you could use the rapid fire feature.

 

[Jamie C.]

At very least, I figure a .22 out of a small pistol like a Beretta Bobcat is a better bet than, say, pepper spray.

The small guns usually have a god-awful muzzle blast, even being a .22, and I just don't see anybody laughing off a face full of burning gases and flying lead.

And if the attacker survives and runs off, he'll be easy to identify later; just look for the person with the bad complexion, smoldering hair, and burnt-off eyebrows.



J.C.