22LR vs 22WMR vs 38 for recoil and efficiency

[chicharrones]

Ballistics by the inch seems to have the same results too

22mag

22lr

They don't real world test the 22mag in a snubby though. Either is about 880fps in a 2 inch barrel

NAA firearms has some velocity numbers for their mini revolvers with a variety of barrel lengths. The Black Widows have 2" barrels and can fire either .22 LR and .22 WMR.

Black Widow .22 LR velocity table

Black Widow .22 WMR velocity table

ballistics - North American Arms

Ballistics Table Mini-Revolvers .22 Long Rifle 1 1/8" barrel Black Widow - .22 Long Rifle .22 Long Rifle 1 5/8" barrel Black Widow - .22 Magnum .22 Magnum 1 1/8" barrel Mini Master - .22 Long Rifle .22 Magnum 1 5/8" barrel Mini Master - .22 Magnum .22 Short 1-1/8"…

www.northamericanarms.com

 

[chicharrones]

I have it down to the final 3 caliber snubbies
My goal is to have controllable recoil tolerance - effectiveness for EDC - range cost
I am asking for YOUR OPINION BECAUSE there maybe a factor that I am not a are of
THEEE OPTIONS
1) 22LR
2) 22WMR
3) 38 wadcutters-> I have this round and it is only tolerable for me at 142grs
THANK YOU

If you own these three, the .38 Special with wadcutters. Better trigger and harder hitting ammo than rimfire out of a revolver.

If you own none of those, then throw me in with everyone that brought up revolvers that can shoot .32 H&R magnum. Centerfire reliability, centerfire trigger pull, harder hitting ammo than rimfire out of a revolver. Plus low recoil and usually an extra shot in the cylinder than a same sized .38 Special.

 

[IlikeSA]

My wife shoots in the neighborhood of 150 rounds/year of the .22WMR Critical Defense, and in going on ten years, she's had one bad round, and that was a crumpled case that she noticed when she took it out of the box. She's never had a round of the Hornady fail in any of her guns. I think the QC is just as good as any of their centerfire calibers.

I'm not referring to I going bang, but to its effects in the body at stopping someone relative to a .3575 sized round.

 

[Antihero]

NAA firearms has some velocity numbers for their mini revolvers with a variety of barrel lengths. The Black Widows have 2" barrels and can fire either .22 LR and .22 WMR.

Black Widow .22 LR velocity table

Black Widow .22 WMR velocity table

ballistics - North American Arms

Ballistics Table Mini-Revolvers .22 Long Rifle 1 1/8" barrel Black Widow - .22 Long Rifle .22 Long Rifle 1 5/8" barrel Black Widow - .22 Magnum .22 Magnum 1 1/8" barrel Mini Master - .22 Long Rifle .22 Magnum 1 5/8" barrel Mini Master - .22 Magnum .22 Short 1-1/8"…

www.northamericanarms.com

Thank you for that, looks like a little more than 880fps too.

Also looks like Stingers are pretty close to most 22mag too. I've always had good luck with Stingers really

 

[Pistolay]

Ballistics by the inch seems to have the same results too

22mag

22lr

They don't real world test the 22mag in a snubby though. Either is about 880fps in a 2 inch barrel

That BBTI .22WMR test was pretty bogus. As you said, they didn't test any real short-barrel guns, but in addition to that, when their cut-down barrel got down to the shortest lengths, they weren't getting readings from their chronometer, so they just extrapolated the results from longer barrel lengths. IOW, they made it up.

Here's a link to a video of ShootingTheBull410 getting 1000fps from Critical Defense in an NAA Black Widow with a 2" barrel.

North American Arms (NAA) mini-revolver ammo test: Hornady Critical Defense 22WMR 22 Magnum

The North American Arms mini-revolvers are fascinating little firearms, incredibly tiny and capable of packing quite a little punch. This is the third in my...

www.youtube.com

 

[Mosin Bubba]

I agree with the 32 suggestions in this thread, but 130gr 38 Spl loads are pretty sedate too. Both are a darn sight better than 22 LR.

 

[TTv2]

It's not an option, but should be- .32 wadcutters.

.22 Magnum, while I like in carbines and rifles, I find it to have the same, if not more, duds than .22 LR. While .22 LR isn't as good for defense as .22 Mag is in terms of ballistics, it's so cheap that a person can afford to shoot it 5x as much over .22 Mag that they will become very proficient with it and because of that I think proficiency beats practicality. .22 doesn't hold a candle to a centerfire tho for reliability or defense.

.38 is going to have more recoil and hold less rounds per cylinder compared to .32. Take the .32 plunge now, every year that goes by you're going to hate shooting a snub .38 more until you get to the point you can't shoot it anymore.

 

[TTv2]

Antihero was correct to a point.
The .22mag from a revolver gives you approximately the power of a .22lr from a RIFLE! Around 1,150-1,200 fps whereas the .22lr from a 2” bbl gives 850-950fps.
The muzzle blast from a .22mag is also substantial.
My EDC revolver is now a Taurus 856 Stainless. It’s heavy for what it is, but is soft shooting and laser beam accurate with 148gr match wadcutters and holds 6-rds.

When I tested Aguila Interceptor in a 3" LCRx, I found it had a velocity of over 1160 fps and this is a 40gr .22 LR. With results like that, there's not much point in getting a snub .22 Mag paying twice to five times as much for ammo.

 

[defjon]

Oh I forgot about the critical defense lite for the 38

I had wrist surgery, those really are light on recoil. About on par with a wadcutter lightly loaded.

You're about going to decent 380 jhp performance, so down loading the 38, but you will get expansion and penetration to the tune of 9-10 inches if i recall..

You could alternate wadcutter/defense lite..cover penetration and expansion without much recoil. Or carry the wadcutters, use the lite defense in your speed strip/loader.

Those critical defense lite were mild from my aluminum frame 642. Seemed to have flash control in the powder too? Easy to keep the sight picture around sundown at the range.

Just ignore the pink tip...

 

[TTv2]

I think for all intents and purposes you can view the 22mag and 22lr as roughly equal in a snubby but there is some caveats.

I think the 22 mag has better self defence ammo options but 22lr ammo is significantly cheaper and easier to find. So it depends if you wanna shoot it a bunch I guess.

Out of a 2 inch snub the .22 Mag defense ammo built for handguns is still questionable in expansion. My rule of thumb is if I question if the bullet will expand, I use a solid bullet instead and with Aguila Interceptor having roughly the same velocity as .22 Mag in a short barrel revolver whilst still able to shoot affordable, common .22 LR, it's a no brainer.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

That’s an interesting idea. I assume you would follow 148-150 grain powder recipes?

Yeah, that's pretty much what I did. Try this at your own risk, of course.

I inserted the two bullets into the case with the flat bases touching. Seat the first bullet just below the case mouth, then press the second firmly against it so they'll seat together without an air gap.

You'll want to use wadcutter charge data when seating both bullets full-length, since they'll reduce case volume more than other types of 150ish grain bullets.

Also probably wise to use a magnum revolver for initial load development before trying in a snubby. There's load information about this on other forums.

BTW, the Ordnance Dept. experimented with the idea of duplex bullet loads in 7.62x51. It seemed to work pretty well in a bottlenecked case, though the task is much simpler with a straight-walled case.

Project SALVO: M198 Duplex Ball Ammunition | Project SALVO began in 1951 as a way to increase hit probability in combat, based around flechettes as well as multiple projectiles in 1 round of... | By InRange TV | Facebook

Project SALVO began in 1951 as a way to increase hit probability in combat, based around flechettes as well as multiple projectiles in 1 round of...

www.facebook.com

 

[Jim Watson]

As I recall, one of the double bullets had a bevel on the base to give a predictable spread. Too bad they couldn't orient it so the spread was always horizontal.

 

[JERRY]

My wife's preference is the .32 h&r mag but in the summer if she's really concerned with better concealment it's the .22mag just because it's a slightly smaller package with the hip clip, but noticeably lighter in weight.

 

[Gordon]

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[Monster Zero]

.22LR and .22MRF are fine for small game like squirrels and gophers, but I would not carry one for personal defense under any circumstance, they have too little stopping power for a human-size target. They will kill, but shot placement is critical. .38 Spl. is not a high-recoil cartridge, even in a snub nose, and wadcutters are not an appropriate defensive load, they are low power and made to cut sharp-edged holes in paper.

If you can't handle a standard .38 Spl. load, then a revolver isn't for you for personal defense. You should look at .32 Auto or .380 Auto in a blowback action semiautomatic. If those are too much, you shouldn't carry.

.32magnum, or even .32long.

 

[Ed Bulldog]

22 LR beats nothing but ammo brand make a big difference in reliability. It has been my experience in the last several years that CCI mini-mags have less duds than other brands. That is almost none and in all the rifles and handguns I have shot them in. Next is 22 mag which according to my "scientific" test of shooting the same steel swinging target will get you a little more energy on target but at the expense of an ear splitting muzzle blast, blinding in the dark fire ball, and at twice the price for ammo. 38 special gives a much larger diameter hole even with no expansion but I find small revolvers in that caliber unpleasant to shoot. All three will destroy your hearing without protection and there is no time to don that in a SD situation. The 22 mag would do it quickly and I would jump to the 38 for that reason alone. I prefer a hand that gets over recoil fairly quickly to losing hearing that can never return. Neither will be a problem if you don't live through the situation though. Go shoot the same swinging steel gong and see which causes the most movement. Compare it to getting hit with a small machinest's hammer to a 3 # double jack. It's the "get a bigger hammer" effect. The small hammer will swing quicker than the larger but cannot deliver the energy the heavier but slower one does

If hand strength is a factor the long stiff DA trigger pull is a problem with most revolvers. 22 mag is a problem in most semi-auto pistols I have seen. Like always it's best to let the user decide what they prefer.

Oh I forgot about the critical defense lite for the 38

I had wrist surgery, those really are light on recoil. About on par with a wadcutter lightly loaded.

You're about going to decent 380 jhp performance, so down loading the 38, but you will get expansion and penetration to the tune of 9-10 inches if i recall..

You could alternate wadcutter/defense lite..cover penetration and expansion without much recoil. Or carry the wadcutters, use the lite defense in your speed strip/loader.

Those critical defense lite were mild from my aluminum frame 642. Seemed to have flash control in the powder too? Easy to keep the sight picture around sundown at the range.

Just ignore the pink tip...

Thank you for your response
My EDC loads in my 605 poly are- all 38s:
In the cylinder- 148gr WC
Reloads via a speed loader 90gr
Reloads via speed strips are 148gr WC
After reviewing the great responses - I may not be understanding correctly- that 22LR & 22WMR have a higher failure rate than 38
……………. With that in mind - maybe a heavier Snubby like a SP101 - but the LCR has a fantastic trigger
……………..or just go with the LCR and wear gloves at the range
…………….. great to have options

 

[Pistolay]

Out of a 2 inch snub the .22 Mag defense ammo built for handguns is still questionable in expansion. My rule of thumb is if I question if the bullet will expand, I use a solid bullet instead and with Aguila Interceptor having roughly the same velocity as .22 Mag in a short barrel revolver whilst still able to shoot affordable, common .22 LR, it's a no brainer.

One thing to consider though, is that Hornady Critical Defense is premium ammo, presumably with a higher level of QC. My wife and I have had duds with Interceptors (few, but still), and these days we stick to CCI Mini Mags in 22lr, but I'd still prefer premium defensive ammo in a carry gun.

 

[TTv2]

One thing to consider though, is that Hornady Critical Defense is premium ammo, presumably with a higher level of QC. My wife and I have had duds with Interceptors (few, but still), and these days we stick to CCI Mini Mags in 22lr, but I'd still prefer premium defensive ammo in a carry gun.

I've asked CCI in the past what's different between priming .22 Mag and LR and they responded they use a little more compound (due to the larger volume in the .22 Mag's rim) and a compound that burns a bit hotter. I don't believe they are checking .22 Magnum any more or any differently than .22 LR. Just because the ammunition costs more does not mean it will be better because much of the price difference comes down to case fabrication costs (nickel plated is an extra step and .22 Mag uses more brass), the bullets being more costly to produce, and the decreased demand leading to limited production vs the mass production of .22 LR. If .22 Mag were made in the same volumes .22 LR is, the price difference would be less drastic, however if that were done that .22 Magnum ammo would sit around in warehouses for a decade before being sold because there is such less demand for it vs .22 LR.

Out of a handgun, I'm not seeing the added benefit of paying more for .22 Mag, unless you're using a long enough barrel and the JHP's expand, then you are getting your money's worth.

 

[Ed Bulldog]

I've asked CCI in the past what's different between priming .22 Mag and LR and they responded they use a little more compound (due to the larger volume in the .22 Mag's rim) and a compound that burns a bit hotter. I don't believe they are checking .22 Magnum any more or any differently than .22 LR. Just because the ammunition costs more does not mean it will be better because much of the price difference comes down to case fabrication costs (nickel plated is an extra step and .22 Mag uses more brass), the bullets being more costly to produce, and the decreased demand leading to limited production vs the mass production of .22 LR. If .22 Mag were made in the same volumes .22 LR is, the price difference would be less drastic, however if that were done that .22 Magnum ammo would sit around in warehouses for a decade before being sold because there is such less demand for it vs .22 LR.

Out of a handgun, I'm not seeing the added benefit of paying more for .22 Mag, unless you're using a long enough barrel and the JHP's expand, then you are getting your money's worth.

Thank you for your response
Economics is the ultimate truth measure

 

[doubleh]

Thank you for your response
My EDC loads in my 605 poly are- all 38s:
In the cylinder- 148gr WC
Reloads via a speed loader 90gr
Reloads via speed strips are 148gr WC
After reviewing the great responses - I may not be understanding correctly- that 22LR & 22WMR have a higher failure rate than 38
……………. With that in mind - maybe a heavier Snubby like a SP101 - but the LCR has a fantastic trigger
……………..or just go with the LCR and wear gloves at the range
…………….. great to have options

I can't remember ever having a dud round with 22 mag but that was years ago and in a rifle. Recently I have shot a small amount in handguns and never had one fail to fire either. I have decided 22 mag really has no place in what I want to shoot and the small amount of ammo I have will be expended on steel targets.

 

[Gordon]

A .22 rimfire of any sort will not have as sweet and light a DA pull as an equivalent centerfire because of reliability and the shape of the respective firing pin's impact.

 

[Ed Bulldog]

I can't remember ever having a dud round with 22 mag but that was years ago and in a rifle. Recently I have shot a small amount in handguns and never had one fail to fire either. I have decided 22 mag really has no place in what I want to shoot and the small amount of ammo I have will be expended on steel targets.

Thank you for your response
I just found a range in Tampa- one hour away from home - that has a variety of 22 revolvers
The range clerk was unable to state if they were 22LR vs 22WMR - it is a start
Thank you again

 

[Pistolay]

I've asked CCI in the past what's different between priming .22 Mag and LR and they responded they use a little more compound (due to the larger volume in the .22 Mag's rim) and a compound that burns a bit hotter. I don't believe they are checking .22 Magnum any more or any differently than .22 LR.

My comparison of Interceptors to Mini Mags was about range ammo, and had nothing to do with Maxi Mags. If she was ever going to carry her .22lr LCRx, it would be with Federal Punch, not Mini Mags. And she carries her snubbies with Critical Defense, not Maxi Mags, which she uses at the range. Premium SD ammo will have a higher level of QC, which IMO, is especially important with rimfire calibers. And I actually do keep several boxes of the .22lr Punch around, on the off chance that she might ever be forced to carry one those guns.

 

[TTv2]

I'd like to see the source for the claims that premium ammo is held to a higher level of quality. Are the primers used of the match grade variety? Are manufacturers producing the premium ammo on different machines that are known to hold better tolerances? I don't think that's the case, when the factory gets orders they prioritize which orders need to be done before others, so they will put whatever they need on the first available line.

Again, the added cost comes from greater expense based on material use (this includes powders, I'm sure the manufacturers are using higher grade powders for faster velocities from short barrels), time spent in fabrication (I figure hollow points take longer to make than FMJ's by a few seconds), but the largest is the production volume. Federal and Speer make far less HST's and Gold Dot ammo than they do American Eagle and Lawman FMJ. We see from companies like Winchester and Remington that their economy line JHP can be made for not much more than the FMJ, so why don't manufacturers just make JHP ammo? Probably due to military contracts, they can't be making just JHP for the civilian and LE market. Also, even with Winchester White Box being so cheap even with JHP, the cost is still going to be higher due to the bullet costing more and we know how skinflinty shooters can be, I mean look at how many are butthurt they can't get 9mm for $8 a box.

That's for centerfire, for rimfire I do not believe there is anymore quality checking done with the premium defense ammo as opposed to the general ammo. We see even with stuff like Critical Defense .22 Mag it's only a few bucks more a box and that cost is coming from the stuff I've mentioned in nickel cases, specialty bullets, specialty powders, and the decreased production quantities of not just the component supply chain, but the fixed ammunition itself. The added costs are not coming from some wizard in his laboratory conducting arcane tests to ensure it pleases the King and the royal court.

 

[REWTEX]

I can't remember ever having a dud round with 22 mag but that was years ago and in a rifle. Recently I have shot a small amount in handguns and never had one fail to fire either. I have decided 22 mag really has no place in what I want to shoot and the small amount of ammo I have will be expended on steel targets.

I agree with not having duds with 22 mag or lr for me. I have shot many, many rounds of both in the last 50 years and I have had very few dud lr rounds, nothing like some people are stating here. Maybe I just got extremely lucky with my rimfire ammo purchases through the years.