2400 need magnum sparks?

[Col. Harrumph]

I experimented with 2400 in .44 Special today and found unburned powder spread everywhere, even with loads approaching the book maximum.

I used Winchester WLP spark plugs. I think that was a mistake. The box says, "for standard or magnum loads"... which is an odd thing to say, IMHO.

(No other issues. Cast 255 grainers, sized .431", good solid crimp, clean pockets, etc.)

 

[Walkalong]

It's too slow for .44 Spl. You want a fast to medium speed powder. 700X and lead is a great combination in .44 Spl.

 

[Rule3]

No mag primer needed
Wrong powder

 

[25-20 WCF]

Alliant currently publishes data for 2400 in the .44 Special, listing a maximum charge weight of 13.0 grains for 965 fps with a 250-grain cast bullet. A standard CCI-300 primer is specified. That said, I agree that 2400 is too slow for most uses in the Special, Unique works well if the OP wants to stick to Alliant data.


.

 

[Hondo 60]

anudder vote for "too slow"
The "Specials" seem to prefer faster burning powders.
This includes, .38Spl, .41 Spl, .44 Spl. etc, etc.

But it worx well for .44 Mag.

 

[Col. Harrumph]

Thanks, all. And Elmer Kieth swore by 2400 for is .44 Spls. Just goes to show you... something, I guess.

 

[WrongHanded]

Thanks, all. And Elmer Kieth swore by 2400 for is .44 Spls. Just goes to show you... something, I guess.

Yep. But he was experiment with the .44spl and 2400 to create the much higher pressure .44 mag. And as I understand it, pushing those guns to the very limit as he did so.

 

[Typetwelve]

Yeah...I made the same mistake, sub 1000 fps 44 special loads with 2400 = big time mess. Hot 44 magnum loads with 2400 were just fine.

 

[joed]

Thanks, all. And Elmer Kieth swore by 2400 for is .44 Spls. Just goes to show you... something, I guess.

Elmer used 2400 because he was experimenting with heavy loads. You never mentioned what load you used. I shoot 15.0 gr of 2400 in my S&W .44 Spls with Win LP primers and 250 gr LSWCs and get no unburned powder. Velocity is about 1100 from a 6.5" barrel.

2400 should not be used in light loads

 

[Slamfire]

I don't know how much unburnt powder you are seeing, but with all gunpowders there will be some. A "clean" burning powder such as Titegroup does so with high pressures and high temperatures. The higher the pressure and the hotter the combustion the more complete with be the combustion. If however you are running the powder at an inappropriate low pressure level, you will have more unburnt powder grains come out of the tube, and the cylinder.

Keith was running his 429421 250 grain bullet with 17.5 grs 2400 in a 44 Special case. I have used that load in 44 Magnums with 44 Magnum cases. It is way too hot for most 44 Specials, and I am not too sure whether it is appropriate in N frames or Ruger Blackhawks.



Looking at the Feb 1953 American Rifleman Article on the 44 Spl, with cup data for the loads, a 250 Keith lead, 17.5 grs 2400 gave 1060 fps at 17,000 cup. The "hot" load I shoot is 7.5 grains Unique with a 250 Keith and that produced 12,500 cup. The standard pressure maximum load is a 240 with 6.5 grains Unique, no data given in the article.

I enjoyed reading Keith's stories but the hot loads he fired, in the vintage guns of the era, with the vintage poor steels, were extremely risky. I am surprised he did not blow more cylinders, maybe he did not fire all that many hot loads through any one pistol.

 

[.308 Norma]

And as I understand it, pushing those guns to the very limit as he did so.

Yeppers, and from what I've read, uncle Elmer went a little beyond the "very limit" a few times. I read somewhere that he blew up a gun or three.

 

[Col. Harrumph]

His book, Sixguns, has several photos of blown-up revolvers. Funny now you mention it, he never identifies who did the dirty.

 

[Slamfire]

Yeppers, and from what I've read, uncle Elmer went a little beyond the "very limit" a few times. I read somewhere that he blew up a gun or three.

Let he who has not had an overcharge, throw the first rock.

 

[RKRCPA]

As I recall, Elmer blew the top strap off of a 45 Colt and then switched to the 44 spl. In all of his writings he warns about maximum loads and always recommended a grain or two below max.

 

[.308 Norma]

Let he who has not had an overcharge, throw the first rock.

Well, that would be me - not one overcharge that I know of in over 40 years of handloading. Undercharge however - well, let's talk about something else.

 

[Archie]

Thanks, all. And Elmer Kieth swore by 2400 for is .44 Spls. Just goes to show you... something, I guess.

You are correct, of course. Brother Keith used a load of 18.5 grains of 2400 with a 250 grain lead SWC bullet as well. That load is NOT recommended in one's typical .44 Special. My typing here probably caused heart palpitations in some one. DO NOT use that load in a .44 Special.

I have an old S&W 2nd Model 44HE (which is what ol' Elmer used to develop his loads) and I use Power Pistol powder. The online Alliant site gives a maximum load, with a 250 grain cast lead bullet. I use a bit less than their maximum and my loads run (chorongraphed) around 800 fps with no indication of pressure and no exasperation. With the lead SWC or WC bullet, it should be just as effective as a standard pressure .45 ACP.

To your primer issue. I have used 2400 in .44 Special and Magnum, and .22 Hornet, I think. Haven't used a magnum power in any of them and am not overly impressed with any of them burning 'dirty'. However, as you seem to understand, powders do burn best in the upper levels of their pressure range.

 

[243winxb]

2400-13grs-250 cast KEITH - CCI300-CASE Rem. Min oal 1.580"- 965 fps. 44 SPECIAL DATA. (PHOTO)

Above from 2019 Alliant printed data. Older data here http://castpics.net/dpl/

To receive a printed version of the Alliant Powder Reloaders Guide, Please fill out the form below. Allow 3-4 weeks for delivery. Delivery only available in the US and Canada
http://www.alliantpowder.com/resources/catalog.aspx or down load it.



CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

OLD Lyman #45 handbook has data using 2400-17.5 @ 1150 fps. -250 gr with gas check in 44 special.
When comparing Lymans old data with current Alliant 44 mag data (20 grs), it would seem to be usable data?? Modern firearms only. A mag primer may increase pressures.

 

[Rule3]

Just because there is "data" for powder does not make it the "best" powder for that application.

Lots of powders are tested. From super fast to very slow, so clearly not ALL can be the "best"

 

[243winxb]

A good read on 2400 powder.. Old vs new. With pressure testing in 44 magnum.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?72355-B-2400-Hercules-vs-Alliant

With regards to the seemingly low psi; this test was conducted at 39 -43 F. A check of previous test with this same bullets and same lot of 22 gr of Alliant conducted when the temperature was in the high 70s revealed an increase of 5000 psi over what was obtained in this test. Obviously the ambiant temperature is a variable that must be considered.

Larry Gibson has another thread on the 357 mag. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...00-in-the-357-Magnum-with-6-different-primers

Test of Hercules vs Alliant 2400 in the 357 magnum with 6 different primers.

 

[RKRCPA]

I think 2400 is a good choice if you are looking for 1200fps loads with a 250gr SWC. If you are seeking a more reasonable 950fps load with the same bullet Unique or Power Pistol is the better choice.

 

[Walkalong]

Or BE-86

 

[Jim Watson]

Keith was running his 429421 250 grain bullet with 17.5 grs 2400 in a 44 Special case. I have used that load in 44 Magnums with 44 Magnum cases. It is way too hot for most 44 Specials, and I am not too sure whether it is appropriate in N frames or Ruger Blackhawks.

Looking at the Feb 1953 American Rifleman Article on the 44 Spl, with cup data for the loads, a 250 Keith lead, 17.5 grs 2400 gave 1060 fps at 17,000 cup.

I fail to see the problem.
We are regularly reminded that single actions are being regularly produced with both .45 Colt and .45 ACP cylinders, therefore it must be OK to load .45 Colt up to ACP pressure of 18,000 CUP or even to +P which lacks a CUP standard but is about 10% greater in ppsi.

 

[RKRCPA]

In Handloader #312 Brian Pearce shows 17.0 grs of 2400 with a 250gr SWC as a 25,000 psi load in the 44 special. The same bullet with 8.5 grs of Unique is listed as 22,000 psi.

For comparison, 7.0 grs of Unique runs 15,500 psi which is SAAMI compliant.

My standard loading in 44spl is 7.5 grs of Unique with the 250 gr SWC. I don't feel the need to go any higher than that. Others do and that is fine with me.

 

[Typetwelve]

In Handloader #312 Brian Pearce shows 17.0 grs of 2400 with a 250gr SWC as a 25,000 psi load in the 44 special. The same bullet with 8.5 grs of Unique is listed as 22,000 psi.

For comparison, 7.0 grs of Unique runs 15,500 psi which is SAAMI compliant.

My standard loading in 44spl is 7.5 grs of Unique with the 250 gr SWC. I don't feel the need to go any higher than that. Others do and that is fine with me.

I mostly use 240g SWC lead rounds...like you my go-to is between 7 to 7.5g of Unique in 44 spcl. I find that lead round over 7g to be darn near perfect to shoot.

When I was goofing around, I loaded up some 180g XTP over 18g of 2400. It was a very messy load. They came in at 976 fps. Using 8.5g of Unique I was able to get the same FPS without the mess.

I'll say it again, 2400 in magnum loads is a-ok. I made some 1600 fps 240g screamers with it and besides smacking the poo out of my hand, they didn't make a mess.

 

[cheygriz]

HS-6 and AAC#7 are good for "HOT" .44 special loads.

Old Elmer was a highly skilled writer, and his writings were very entertaining to read. I have all of his books. But like most of the writers of his day, O'Conner, Askins, Skelton, Cooper, etc, they need to be taken with a HUGE grain of salt.