.243 Winchester vs. .270

[RugerMcMarlin]

I guess I'm looking at the whole thing backwards, I thought shot placement was precisely the point. And using a round that wont distract him with the upcoming recoil, and allows total concentration on the shot is the right way to go. The 243 Win is an excellent deer cartridge, and a fine one to learn with. I also think its fairly ignorant to suggest that necking up or down 1mm in caliber, and saying it would be vastly better or even noticeable. ANY of the calibers based on the .308 cartridge will be fine. For a varmint round it bucks wind drift better than most, for long range a couple million antelope thinks it worked fine too. What cartridge are you using that placement is'nt an issue?

 

[Smaug]

It seems that most folks agree that .243 Win is fine for deer.

It is worth noting however, that deer up north are notably bigger than southern deer. Yet we still use .243 up north with great success.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

Vigilante X, you may have hit on the whole issue when you mentioned it being ok for varmints. If some well meaning friend suggests to use a lighter grain bullet, thinking it equals less recoil, he would probably end up with a round designed for varmints. That could cause a serious problem on penitration. Bullet selection is key. But you could do exactly the same thing with a 270.

 

[Maverick223]

Ill take the .243, my book speed kills.

Not true; otherwise folks would be using a .17MachIV.

Note that I put conditions on my use of my .243. No angling shots.

I believe that is the key to the effective use of the .243Win., limit yourself to good shots and it'll kill a deer just as good as a .45-70Govt.

I also think its fairly ignorant to suggest that necking up or down 1mm in caliber, and saying it would be vastly better or even noticeable.

1mm makes a great deal of difference in mass, sectional density, and thereby terminal performance...to suggest otherwise ignores the fact that volume increases exponentially in relation to diameter. One millimeter is the difference between a .243Win. & 7mm-08Rem., a 6mmRem. & 7x57mmMauser, all of which are far more than simply noticeable.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

I guess if you mean volume as in bullet mass, my point was CASE volume was pretty similar for obvious reasons. From the same cartridge case, increase in bullet mass will equal decrease in velocity. Terminal foot pounds will be pretty similar.

I think you will also agree, that increase in bullet mass, will require increase in case capacity, for a balanced cartridge that can effectively use the increase in bullet mass to any advantage.

 

[surjimmy]

My son took this monster 3 years ago he was 11, his first deer 260lbs. Used a Howa 1500 80gr. 243. My nephew 177lber, 80gr. 243. His first deer also 2yrs ago. Last year my wife with her first deer 168lb, 80gr. 243. Are ya seeing a pattern? This year I will be using a Sako in a 243.

 

[Maverick223]

I guess if you mean volume as in bullet mass, my point was CASE volume was pretty similar for obvious reasons.

That's true, but doesn't mean much as far as killing power.

Terminal foot pounds will be pretty similar.

Not necessarily, especially it any appreciable range. Furthermore, energy doesn't have much to do with a cartridges ability to take any particular quarry. Negating bullet design/construction (which is the most important factor) momentum has far more impact on the cartridges ability to take game. When taking into account bullet construction, it is far easier to make a large caliber bullet with high sectional density and proper expansion that isn't at the expense of weight retention.

I think you will also agree, that increase in bullet mass, will require increase in case capacity, for a balanced cartridge that can effectively use the increase in bullet mass to any advantage.

No. Two of my favorite cartridges are the .280Rem. and the .35Whelen...they couldn't be more different, but are based upon the same case (for all intents and purposes). Both are very useful, but are best suited to different tasks. The same can be said for the .243Win. and the .358Win. (to an even greater degree).

 

[GunNut]

I went from a .270 to a .243 this last hunting season and was more than pleased by the performance. Ended up shooting a nice 2x3 mule deer and it dropped in it's tracks.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

Re buttle

Okay , Will see if I get to post this with out having to log in again.

Item one I made a statement about case capacity, that you agreed with and so immediately change subject to killing power!!?

then you isolate three phrases out of context, and counter with generalities and opinion, who knows what your idea of "appreciable range" or "killing power" is?

Finally , lets use your choices of 280 and 35 Whelan , because they precisely illustrate my point, same case, light bullet fast/heavy bullet slow. wether you like them or find them useful has no bearing on case capacity.

Last opinion, you say big bullets are easier to make, did you read that or is that your experience making bullets? God help me dont say cast bullets!:banghead:

 

[GunNut]

.243 kills this deer season. 85gr Barnes TSX


Recovered bullet from deer:

 

[41 Mag]

.243 Winchester vs. .270
My brother bought a bolt action rifle for his son's graduation present.
I tried to tell him that a .270 would be a better choice for all around work.
(varmit control, deer hunting and target shooting) He ended up getting a
Savage .243. (I talked him into getting the Savage but not the caliber)
His son is a beginning shooter and recoil may be an issue. But I am thinking
the .243 maybe a poor choice for a beginning deer hunter. (shot placement
may be an issue) I do think it would be ideal for varmit hunting and target
shooting. Are my concerns about the .243 as a beginner caliber for a deer
hunter justified? I can not speak from experience in this case; my deer
rifle calibers are 30.06 and .30-30

In my experience over the past 40 years, if the shooter is comfortable with the rifle/caliber they will shoot it well and be successful. Given the .243's lighter recoil and availability and selection of great bullets nowadays, it is as capable as any round of cleanly taking critters big and small across the country.

Teach the boy the patients to pick his shot, place it well, and he will be successful. There are way too many folks who would rather blast a hole through something from end to end rather than go home empty handed. Teach the boy to hunt, and he will have a much better appreciation of it.

I hunted with a .243 from the time I was 7, until my early 20's, when I moved up to a 25-06. In all that time I also hunted a 30-06 and a .270. I killed three to four deer a year every year through that span, and never noted any appreciable difference in which one made a deer hit the dirt quicker, but did notice a bit more recoil, mess, and do a bit more trimming with the bigger calibers.

My oldest grandson, got it in his head, just past his 3rd birthday that he wanted to shoot him a hog. Well with some reduced loads and my Ruger Compact he practiced all summer and did so just before his 4th birthday.


The 130 reduced load produced about the same recoil in the 6.5# rifle as the 100gr load we shoot from a full sized .243 but he could not handle the added lenght and weight of the .243. So it popped him pretty well for his size but he was determined and worked hard to accomplish his goal of putting his shots in the kill zone at 50yds.



He's now 9, and has taken several hogs with the .308 and those 130gr loads, and a coyote at 150+yds. He also has a whitetail doe he got using a 6.5x55, and a nice buck he got this past season just after his birthday with his mom's 25-06. After his buck and the ensuing argument between him, his mom, and myself over her rifle, I presented him with the Sako Forrester .243 I had gotten him back when this all started. The next evening he promptly used it to add this nice feral hog to their freezer ,


Between myself and my close friend we have shot every caliber from .17 through 300 RUM while working on the hogs. They are much more resilient to taking a bullet than any deer I have ever shot. In all the years of doing so we have gravitated back to the .243 and in fact that is all him and his family hunt with anymore. There are no wild shots taken, and everything that is shot has hit the dirt plain and simple. They use factory Hornady Custom ammo, and I use 100gr handloads with Nosler 100gr Solid Bases.

All this said, the caliber IMO is not what makes or breaks the hunt, it's the confidence and the ability of the hunter. If they are comfortable with their equipment they will get the job done, and not being shy of it is a huge part. Give the caliber and the boy and chance to work things out. If he handles it well he has the option of moving up and being experienced with shooting and comfortable with what to expect. Granted this boy is a bit older, but I know folks in their mid 40's who flinch when they shoot anything based off a 30-06 case simply due to it's lenght over the 308 based calibers. It's all just a big head game, but one that is sometimes hard to change once imprinted.

 

[Maverick223]

Item one I made a statement about case capacity, that you agreed with and so immediately change subject to killing power!!?

then you isolate three phrases out of context, and counter with generalities and opinion, who knows what your idea of "appreciable range" or "killing power" is?

Killing power (that is: the necessary combination of weight, size, velocity, and bullet construction to take a given animal) is what this thread is about...I believe it is pertinent to mention it. As far as range, my definition of "appreciable" matters not...with all else being equal, a larger bullet will have greater energy retention at than a smaller/lighter projectile. This holds true at any range...and with any case volume. Case volume has little to do with any particular cartridge's suitability to take any particular species.

Finally , lets use your choices of 280 and 35 Whelan , because they precisely illustrate my point, same case, light bullet fast/heavy bullet slow. wether you like them or find them useful has no bearing on case capacity. [sic]

It also proves that the larger projectile has the ability to take larger game effectively...even more so when you take it to the extreme with a cartridge like the .25-06Rem. My point is that speed matters far less than bullet construction, and larger bullets have a better SD and weight retention all else being equal.

Last opinion, you say big bullets are easier to make, did you read that or is that your experience making bullets? God help me dont say cast bullets!

It isn't my opinion, and I didn't simply state that "big bullets are easier to make". The fact is that larger/heavier bullets are easier to make WITH a higher sectional density and good weight retention. That is why the .17MachIV is used solely for small game/varmint hunting, there aren't the bullets available to penetrate, and expand for use on large game...the added velocity goes to waste. The same is true for modern bullet designs like a monolithic expanding bullet or bonded ballistic tip or traditional cast lead (where the effect is exaggerated due to design constraints). Furthermore there is absolutely nothing wrong with a cast lead bullet if used properly...lead has felled many a large game animal and works just as good today as it did 200yrs. ago.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

VigilanteX, Sorry I got sidetracked, .243 Win is fine.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

41MAG Best answer! I'll take pictures over real world experience any day.

 

[JerryM]

The .243 is an excellent choice. It was my first serious deer hunting cartridge after college. I also have taken deer with .270, 7mm Mag, and 300 Wby. None has done better on one shot kills that my .243.
If I were shooting at 500 yards on mule deer I would prefer the .270, but those at the ranges I have shot (250 300yds) have not needed anything else.

I had a friend who that was his only rifle, and I hate to guess how many mule deer he took with one over a 40 year period in CO and AZ. I am sure it exceeded 40.

I suspect that those who doubt it have not used it for a long time, and are repeating what they have read.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[BoilerUP]

As others have said, 243 is more than sufficient for whitetail...especially using premium bullets like a TSX or Partition.

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

And if the OP's relative eventually wants a 270, I'll happily trade my Savage 110 .270 tube for his 243 barrel!

 

[WTBguns10kOK]

The .270 is fairly pointless. A .30-06 is more versatile at it's top end and matches the .270 at mid-low end. A .243 is a joy to shoot, due to its low recoil, and with the advent of all the premium bullets, especially the TSX, TTSX etc., you can be confident knowing your bullet will be strong enough to penetrate.

 

[bpl]

GunNut,

You recovered a Barnes TSX? Isn't that a bullet failure?

 

[helotaxi]

My take is that the .243 is one of the absolute best cartridges to teach someone to shoot and hunt with.

Recoil is light enough that getting LOTS of practice is easy on the shoulder. It is highly unlikely that a shooter will develop a flinch from the recoil.

Teaching the new hunter about shot placement and the patience required to cleanly take an animal is part of teaching them right. The .243 is the perfect tool for this instruction. It will get the job done and will not disappoint when the shot presents itself. Thanks to the comfortable practice, it is very likely that the new hunter can then make that shot as well without thinking about recoil or anything else other than aim and squeeze.

Deer haven't gotten any tougher over the years while what is considered "adequate" in terms of cartridges to harvest them has gotten more powerful all the time. IMO, inadequacy of the hunter in both patience and marksmanship is why this feeling is prevalent. Even the most inexpensive bolt rifle on the market today is more accurate than anything out there 150 years ago. Factor in the almost ubiquitous scope adorning a modern hunting rifle and the "need" for some high powered cartridge becomes nothing more than compensating for lack of skill confidence or both.

Turn the kid into a real rifleman and a real hunter and the .243 will be more than enough medicine.

 

[MachIVshooter]

.243 is plenty for deer or speedgoats. A bit light for elk or moose, but it doesn't sound as though he intends to use it for that.

 

[Beach Nut]

Thanks for all of the replies to my post. My brother did very well buying the
.243. I honestly thought the .270 would be a better all around rifle (deer
hunting, varmit control, target practice) but my eyes have been opened
some. I believe I underestimated the potential of the .243 as a whitetail
cartridge. I'll stick with the .30.06 for open area hunting and the .30-30 for
the woods, but in the future if I decide to get a lighter rifle for coyote and
varmit hunting (and whitetails in case I happen to see one during hunting
season when I'm using it) I will get the .243.

 

[Art Eatman]

Vigilante X, FWIW, my .243 is a 19" carbine with a 2x7 scope. I use the 85-grain Sierra HPBT (now loaded by Federal) for deer and coyotes, but as I posted earlier, with restrictions on the type of shot. 100-grain? "Go for it!"

I've loaded 55-grain bullets for prairie dogs; with that scope my rig does quite well to 300 yards. And, I imagine, it would also work well on coyotes. It should, since the muzzle velocity is greater than a .223 and a 55-grain bullet from a .223 does Bad Things to Ol' Wily.

 

[slowr1der]

I started out thinking like you did that a .243 was not sufficient for deer. I honestly didn't want one and wouldn't have used one. Then a few buddies I hunt with bought .243's. Surprisingly 2 of them also had .270's and started using the .243 instead claiming they liked it better. The other one just had the .243. I thought they were crazy. That is until they started killing deer with them. I have seen them shoot several with them and 95% of them drop right in their tracks. All of them have been shot in the shoulder with the exception of one that a friend shot in the butt as it was running away. Surprisingly it took the deer down too. I helped them skin a couple of the deer they killed and to my surprise the damage done to them where they were hit was amazing. It did quite a bit more damage than my 30-06 I was hunting with. I was simply surprised.

I have to say, the .243 has really proved it self in my eyes and my opinion has totally changed on it. I hate to admit it but I was totally wrong. It seems to do more than great on deer, and has light recoil and is fun to shoot at the same time.

One thing I will mention is that most of them use the 95 grain Hornady SST bullets and they really seem to do a number on deer. I've never seen them shoot one with a Winchester Power Point, but I know they have used those too, but they said they didn't get as good of performance from them.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

I grew up reading Jack O'Conner every month in Outdoor Life, about 20 yrs of that had me convinced 270 was the ONLY cartridge. My first deer rifle was a Springfield A3 O3, and I learned to shoot it , shooting milk jugs, my Grandpa, used to quiz me on the ballistic chart, for 06, not the ME, the drop at 100, 200, 300, 400,500, I only had to memorize 150 and 180 grain. Up til about 5 years ago I could still tell you.

I like the 270. Your brother could have taken the kid to the range, with a 270, and a 243,
40 rounds for each, told him , "I have an errand to run, I'll be back in an hour, Have Fun.

Which do you think the kid will be shooting when he gets back?

 

[Justin Holder]

In my experience there is little to no real world difference in killing power between a 100gr. .243 bullet and a 130gr. .270 bullet. All the hogs, coyotes and deer I've killed with both didn't know the difference.