257 Roberts v. 25-06

[razorblade31]

I am looking to get my first centerfire rifle. I have experience with rimfire rifles, shotguns, and centerfire rifles belonging to my brother. I am thinking of getting a Ruger Hawkeye in one of these calibers, and would like recommendations. If you feel a gun other than the Ruger would be better, please make a recommendation about that too.

 

[R.W.Dale]

As a handloader I would buy the 257 for nostalgia reasons. but for the non handloader I recommend the 25-06 on the issue of ammo availability alone

 

[rbernie]

The following thread has some interesting perspectives on this question:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=298291

I prefer the 25-06 because it's more potent, can be downloaded if needed, and can be had in virtually any rifle from any manufacturer that pleases you.

 

[George Hill]

Then there is the .257 Weatherby Mag... a Vanguard in that caliber would not be a bad option at all.

 

[Bartkowski]

I would go with the .257 even if I didn't handload. Also I don't need as fast/flat a cartridge as the 25-06 so the .257 is fine. And what will the gun be for?

 

[MCgunner]

I do handload and I am 55 years old, killed my first deer at age 11 with my grandpa's .257 Roberts in an old Remington M722 short action. So, I guess I'm HIGHLY biased. LOL However, you couldn't give me 10 BDLs in .25-06 for my .257. I'll never ever sell it. I had it reblued a while back and refinished the stock. I will eventually put another Weaver scope on it, have a Bushnell on it now. It originally had an old Weaver KV that served for years. Still have the scope, it finally gave out and fogged up. LOL

I actually won a BDL in .25-06 at a gun show, was the door prize. Since I already have a .257, I traded that gun for what I really wanted at the time, a stainless Remington M7 in .308 Winchester. That's my favorite hunting rifle now, has a 2x10 Weaver on it, but the old .257 ain't far behind. I still love that old gun. God only knows how many Texas whitetail have fallen to it and it still shoots 3/4 MOA, can shoot a tick off a deer's butt at 100 yards. I've used that old gun to humiliate a few high dollar guns and scopes in club bench rest shoots in the sporting rifle class they were shooting. It wasn't formal bench rest, but I got a kick out of one old boy in the club that is really into his Klinguther/Schmit and Bender stuff. I thoroughly miffed him off to the point he said nothing, stuck his bazillion dollar rigs in his truck and drove home...ROFLMAO!

I handload two favorites with 4831, one using a 100 grain Sierra Game King (3/4 MOA and my favorite deer load) and a Hornady 117 grain interlock (1 moa and very deep penetrating bullet). I push that 100 grainer to 3150 fps and that Hornady 117 to 3050 fps. I don't think a .25 caliber bullet needs to go any faster'n that and it's light recoiling and deadly accurate. The gun is rather light, 22" barrel, short action (fast) and handles GREAT. Nope, I don't need no stinkin' .25-06. I plan to hopefully hand this one down to MY grandkid in the future.

BTW, not long after I inherited that .257, I also inherited my grandpa's old reloading press. I still use those old Pacific dies and press for this caliber. They'll probably last as long as the gun. The old C press weighs as much as a small car. LOL

 

[razorblade31]

The rifle will probably be used on whitetail, and maybe on black bear, though that is not very likely. I am a college kid, school is in New York, but home is in North Carolina. I have very little in the way of hunting experience (a liitle squirrel and rabbit). I have shot a borrowed weatherby (7mm wby) at the range, and wasn't very fond of the action and the recoil was not pleasant from my rather inexperienced perspective, although it was very accurate.

 

[esmith]

I would say 25-06 however .257 isnt far behind. One the ballistics are slightly better with the 25-06. Shoots faster, more energy, more BC. The higher BC lets you stay open to farther ranges. Theres not much the 25-06 can do that a .257 wont.There is also more ammo in the market. The difference is minimal but its there. Barrel life may not be as good, but if its a hunting rifle it won't be shot nearly as much.

 

[MCgunner]

more BC.

Nope, same bullet selection. Now, if you're sayin' premium bullets are available in .25-06 factory loads and may not be in .257, you may have a point. I haven't bought a factory round in quite a while, but a 100 grain Sierra Game king has the same BC loaded in either case.

Either the .25-06 or the .257 will take deer or black bear just fine with an appropriate load. I'd suggest you look at .257 factory load availability and make your decision. I believe the Ruger 77 is still available in the .257, not sure. But, it's a short action, or at least mine is, and is a more compact, easier to carry gun with very light recoil and quite superior to the .243 IMHO. It REALLY wakes up when you handload it, though. It will push the .25-06 for exterior ballistics, I know this. Factory stuff has always been held to insanely low pressures by SAAMI. There is no reason to load to SAAMI pressures in a Winchester +P case. I got the data I'm using now on the IMR4831 from a good article years ago in American Rifleman. I used to use 4350, but 4831 shoots better in this caliber. It is a compressed load, though.

 

[esmith]

Nope, same bullet selection

Federalcartridge.com says

A 115 gr Nosler Partition 25-06 shot out of a 24" barrel will move .8 " at 100 yrds, 3.2" at 200 yrds, and 7.4" at 300 yrds. This is in a 10 mph crosswind.

A 120 gr Nosler Partition 257 roberts shot out of a 24" barrel will move .9" at 100 yrds, 3.5" at 200 yrds, and 8.3" at 300 yrds. This is in a 10 mph crosswind.

Now a heavier bullet in the 257 roberts moves more than a lighter one in a 25-06. Now unless federal uses different selections of materials for their ammunition which i don't think they do im not sure how this is not better. The difference is slight like i said, but its there. Correct me if i am wrong.

 

[razorblade31]

Source: Nosler
115 grain partition BC:.389
120 grain partition BC:.391

Very small difference, but the BC of the 120 grain is better. The bullet from the 25-06 drifts less because it is moving faster and therefore the wind has less time to push on it over any given distance, and so cannot push it as far.

 

[MCgunner]

Yes, but the 115 out of the .25-06 is moving faster than the 120 out of the 257 at the muzzle. This has nothing to do with BC of the bullets.

The BC of a .257" 100 grain Sierra game king is .388. It doesn't matter if you load that bullet in a .25-06 case or a .25-20 case, the BC doesn't change due to the case. It has to do with bullet shape and sectional density and its drag coefficient.

Also, that drop is from center line of bore? Seems awful low for BOTH calibers. I show a drop from bore of 1.86" at 100 yards with a muzzle velocity of 3147 fps with that 100 grain Sierra. Nosler Partitions are not boat tailed and have lower BCs than Game Kings. I would suspect the 100 game king is a higher BC than the 120 Partition. So, something don't seem to jive, here.

But, check this out, sighted for a 250 yard zero, my 100 grain .257 load is 2.31" high at 100, peaks at 2.71" at 150, and is zero at 250 yards. It's only 3.33" low at 300 yards and 8" low at 350. That, there, is some pretty flat shootin'. At the muzzle, it's puttin' out 2199 ft lbs and still retains 1015 ft lbs at 500 yards. It is packin' enough at my imposed max range of 350 yards to kill any Texas whitetail, 1173 ft lbs. It drops below 1500 ft lbs at 225 yards.

Now, that's my handload. The .257 Roberts is a GREAT short action caliber when handloaded. It's not quite up to that with factory Winchester Silvertips. I thought I'd shot some silvertips over the chronograph when I got it, but I can't find the ballistics sheet and that was over 20 years ago. Lets just say, the .257 is a known entity with me.

 

[esmith]

You are comparing the BC of the bullets. Heavier bullets will move less of course. But im comparing the BCs and drags of the cartridges those rounds are fired from.

 

[razorblade31]

A cartridge doesn't have BC as a whole, because the only part that moves and is affected by the wind, gravity etc is the bullet.

 

[esmith]

A cartridge doesn't have BC as a whole, because the only part that moves and is affected by the wind, gravity etc is the bullet

You know what i meant.

 

[MCgunner]

The BC of any bullet shape/weight is a constant and does not change with the gun it is fired in. It can vary slightly with altitude or air density, but it's a constant. The BCs supplied by bullet makers are average numbers and close enough for gov'ment work when doing exterior ballistics calculations.

You can google "ballistic coefficient" if you want the exact mathematics. I have all the derived formulae here to do exterior ballistics calculations, filed it somewhere, but it's pretty complicated to type in a thread. I wrote a fortran 77 program to run it, then when I got a handy dandy Tandy color 3 computer back in the day, I converted it to BASIC. It's best done with a computer. Now days, you can run the calculations with free software from internet sites or buy ballistics programs from many sources. Not many sit around like I used to running the numbers to find that last 50 yards of effective range, though. LOL It's really not that practical, but it is a good education into how the bullet works when it leaves the barrel if you get into it deep enough. If it didn't interest me, I'd never have wasted time on it.

 

[esmith]

The BC of any bullet shape/weight is a constant and does not change with the gun it is fired in. It can vary slightly with altitude or air density, but it's a constant. The BCs supplied by bullet makers are average numbers and close enough for gov'ment work when doing exterior ballistics calculations.

Alright do you want me to say that it moves less from now on?

 

[R.W.Dale]

COME ON GUYS! Talk about overanalization The differences between the two rounds performance is so little as to be meaningless. much less than even the 30-06 vs 308 debates.

I will add that it's a true shame that the 257 Roberts was standardized to fit inside a short action rifle. This round could have been made even better if loaded to cartridge overall lengths similar to it's other x57mm bretherin

 

[MCgunner]

The .257's factory load VELOCITY is lower than the .25-05. This I will grant is true, if that's what you're trying to say. Has nothing to do with the BC of the bullet, though.

 

[esmith]

Its only being debated because im trying to understand this better. I think i got it now. So because the 25-06 factory loads shoot faster they have less time to move off target. I was confused on what was going on.

 

[MCgunner]

COME ON GUYS! Talk about overanalization The differences between the two rounds performance is so little as to be meaningless. much less than even the 30-06 vs 308 debates.

Yeah, I agree..

I will add that it's a true shame that the 257 Roberts was standardized to fit inside a short action rifle. This round could have been made even better if loaded to cartridge overall lengths similar to it's other x57mm bretherin

Even with the bullet seated deeper for a short action magazine, with a good powder like 4831, the cartridge can still be loaded to reasonable pressures to almost equal the .25-06. The secret is in the powder density/burn rate. Like I say, my load is a compressed load, but it fits in the little Remington and performs well with no signs of high pressure. Those that play with this caliber get sold on it over such as the big Weatherby and .25-06 and part of it IS the fact that it's chambered in short action, handy rifles.

The same case or similar in 6mm became the 6mm Remington BTW and it's a short action IIRC.

 

[razorblade31]

"The differences between the two rounds performance is so little as to be meaningless"

Maybe for a handloader, which I am not (at least not yet).

Hornady ammo perfomance
257
117 btsp at 2780
117 sst at 2940 lite magnum
25-06
117 btsp at 2990
117 btsp at 3110 lite magnum

thats about 200fps difference

 

[R.W.Dale]

and .257 and part of it IS the fact that it's chambered in short action, handy rifles.

I'm sorry but I never bought into the whole short actions are handier bit. I've never been in a situation where that .25" longer bolt throw even remotely mattered. For genuinely shorter handier rifle I pick up an Encore

thats about 200fps difference

Which in the realm of hunting rifles shooting at critters inside 400yds is UTTERLY meangless

or in other words if you do the math the 257 does 94.53% of what 25-06 does. Again MEANGLESS

 

[woof]

If you are going to hunt deer in the woods of North Carolina neither one of those cartridges is right, IMO. I would have nothing under .30 cal and I'm not talking about power but brush gun usefulness. A .30-30 or even a 7.62x39 is very adequate with especially the latter having very mild recoil. A .308 is probably more than you need. Unless you are going to be taking shots at 300 yards you don't need a .25-06.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

Matter of personal preference. McGunner's 100 grain load will do 3150 fps, my 25-06 load with a 100 grain Ballistic Tip is an honest 3300 fps.

In a practical situation, skill and familiarity with the rifle will make a MUCH bigger difference than 150 fps will.

My 25-06 that I built on a 1903 Springfield action some 25 years ago is supremely accurate. I can't comment on the .257, since I've never owned one.