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270 Winchester Real World Speed

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Covelo-NdN, May 11, 2016.

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  1. Covelo-NdN

    Covelo-NdN Member

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    Dec 25, 2014
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    Ukiah CA
    Hello the high road,

    I shoot a Winchester Featherweight Model 70 chambered in 270 win. Has a 22 inch barel.

    I would like to get to 3000 fps. I have to reload Barnes ttsx. And have Nosler Accubond.

    Powders I have Rl22, 4350, 4895 sc, and think that's it. Thus far I loaded the AB at 59 grain and chrono'd at 2895.

    Can u share your load data if u shoot a 270.

    I kind of want to get on the ball with a ttsx round California is banning every lead in 2019
     
  2. ants

    ants Member

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    Nov 24, 2007
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    What load manuals do you have? Since you'll be loading Barnes and other solids you need their manuals, brother.

    Have you been to the Barnes and Nosler web site? That's where the load data is immediately found.

    For the Barnes bullet go to http://www.barnesbullets.com/files/2016/04/270WinchesterV20ForWeb1.pdf Only takes a few seconds to do a search and find it.

    For the Accubond go to http://www.nosler.com/nosler-load-data/270-winchester/ . There it is.


    If either Barnes or Nosler web sites don't happen to have the powder(s) you're looking for, call them on the phone.
    They have additional data they don't happen to put on the site. They'll give it to you over the phone.
    That's much safer than asking us guys who don't even know you and might make a mistake.
     
  3. SwaneeSR

    SwaneeSR Member

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    Location:
    MN, United States of America
    Well , what are you shooting at? Wild game? What weight bullet?

    I recently loaded some Barnes TTSX's for a .270 Weatherby Mark V Ultra lite loaned to me. I used RL22 since I was loading 130gr bullets.

    A charge weight of 59.0 grains seems a little hot and must be near max for the case capacity.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  4. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    Location:
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    Getting 3000 fps from a 22" barrel with 130 gr bullets shouldn't be a problem. In rare cases I've seen "slow" barrels that tended to shoot 50-100 fps slower than expected. But even in that rare case 2950-3000 should be possible. You might even be able to come very close to 3100 fps.

    If you're going to shoot copper bullets I'd strongly suggest the 110 or even 95 gr Barnes bullets at 3400-3600 fps over the 130's for deer size game. The lighter 95 gr bullets will out penetrate traditional 130 gr bullets. Copper doesn't expand as rapidly as traditional bullets and works best when you drop down to a lighter than normal weight and shoot them fast. The 130 gr copper bullets would be a better option for elk, moose or larger bear.
     
  5. old heeler

    old heeler Member

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    Location:
    Colorado
    I've shot 140gr TSX in my 270 and used it couple years fill my buck tag and was load right out of Barnes manual start 51gr/H-4350/2852fps max 54gr/H-4350/3030fps and best accuracy was .050" off the lands. Nosler makes 130gr E-Tip and I haven't tried that in 270 but my cow elk rifle 30-06 I use 150gr E-Tip.

    My barrel 24" so had no problem 3000fps with the 140gr TSX and I would think either 130gr TTSX or 130gr E-Tip with 22" barrel you should get 3000fps but that's only a guess.

    My nephew hunts out of Covelo and wife got lot of family around Maxwell/Willows. Nephew been making change over also.
     
  6. Gtscotty

    Gtscotty Member

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    Well first of all, you might want to take a look at the load data for the bullet manufacturers you intend to use.

    Edit: see above

    I've found the Nosler data to be a bit optimistic velocity wise on several cartridges, but especially the .270.

    Hodgdon:
    http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

    and Hornady I have found to be fairly close velocity wise to what I actually saw in a 24" .270.

    I've had a 24" Winchester that matched the book pretty well, but my current 22" Tikka is a little slow. I get/got these velocities with each load... obviously you need to work up any load in your own rifle to ensure safety.

    24"
    130 gr SST over 54.3 gr H4350 - 3040 fps
    130 gr SST over 60.5 gr H4831sc - 3060 fps
    150 gr SGK over 60 gr IMR7977 - 2920 fps
    150 gr SGK over 56.7 gr RL23 - 2970 fps
    150 gr SGK over 57.3 gr RL23 - 3006 fps

    22"
    130 gr SST over 61 gr H4831sc - 3030 fps
    140 gr Accubond over 62 gr IMR7977 - 2940 fps
    140 gr Hornady SPBT over 60 gr H4831sc - 2970 fps


    The load of 54.3 gr of H4350 that was so accurate in my Winchester only produced velocities right at 2900 fps, or a hair less in my Tikka, but still shot very well.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2016
  7. ants

    ants Member

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    3,710
    Scotty, buddy, the correct links for Barnes and Nosler are already in Post #2.


    Your link for Nosler is slight boo boo. You accidentally pasted the Barnes link a second time. :)
    I'm sure you'll jump back and edit the correction, you're pretty good about that.




    Covelo is right to want 3000 fps or better. Those solids need extra velocity to expand (compare to lead core bullets). 130 grain would be best.

    I have the same Winchester as Covelo but haven't shot Barnes in it yet. If I do, I'll send you the chronograph data.
     
  8. CarJunkieLS1

    CarJunkieLS1 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Messages:
    1,278
    Location:
    N. Alabama
    My Tikka .270 Win has a 22 7/16" barrel and I get 3019fps in a Winchester case and a 130gr Accubond. I am using IMR 4831 and a Rem 9 1/2 primer

    My load data is ABOVE published max and use my posted data with CAUTION. Start low and work up. USE WITH CAUTION.

    .270 Winchester Tikka T3 Lite 22 7/16" barrel
    Winchester cases trimmed to min. length
    130gr Nosler Accubond
    57gr IMR 4831
    COAL 3.300
    Remington 9 1/2 primer
     
  9. Gtscotty

    Gtscotty Member

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    Whups, that's what I get for tired posting before my coffee has a chance to kick in. Edit made, I try not to leave too many errors laying around.
     
  10. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
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    10,684
    Location:
    Alabama
    I had difficultly reaching 3000 fps in my 24" barreled 270 Win, and the accuracy was not good with the 130's. I did a lot of load testing, I was shooting five shot groups, if something shows promise I will shoot ten shot groups. If it does not show promise early, the combination gets dumped quickly. I shoot factory loads to give me a baseline. I am of the opinion that given the same bullet weight, that if my loads exceed factory, or published values, then so do my pressures. At least it provides a warning line, even if my beliefs are nothing but claptrap.

    It is surprising to see differences in velocities in factory ammunition, and my goal was to get to the magic 3000 fps mark with a 130. This fabled speed, written about in smoky rooms by gunwriters (probably smoking dope), a bullet going 3000 fps is supposed to be the end all of all end all's. I was disappointed with the velocities I got with my 130's and 55.0 grs H4350. I wanted 3000 fps and I did not get it. The only ammunition I got 3000 fps was Federal factory. After more testing I decided not to pursue Varget loads, IMR 4064 held promise, but the IMR 4350 series of powders, which included AA4350 and H4350, gave me the best accuracy and velocity with 130's. And it all was a terrible disappointment as my rifle clearly shot best with the 150 grain bullets. And that velocity is disappointing. I get better velocities with 150’s in a 308 Win.

    Well, at least with my data, you can see that changing primers does make a difference, at least in velocity.

    Code:
    [SIZE="3"]
    
    [b]FN Deluxe  24" Barrel [/b]				
    							
    100 gr PSP Remington Factory					
    							
    29 Dec 2011 T =  50 °F					
    							
    Ave Vel =	3024			 			
    Std Dev =	11			 			
    ES =	27			 			
    High =	3035			 			
    Low =	3008			 			
    N =	5						
    
    130 gr Winchester Power Point SP Factory 				
    							
    29 Dec 2011 T =  51 °F					
    							
    Ave Vel =	2789			 			
    Std Dev =	17			 			
    ES =	42			 			
    High =	2809			 			
    Low =	2767			 			
    N =	5						
    							
    							
    130 gr Federal Hi Shok Factory					
    							
    29 Dec 2011 T =  51 °F					
    							
    Ave Vel =	3028			 			
    Std Dev =	38			 			
    ES =	103			 			
    High =	3088			 			
    Low =	2985			 			
    N =	5
    							
    							
    130 gr R-P Bronze Point 55.0 grains H4350 wtd lot 22655 R-P cases WLR OAL 3.250"
    							
    29 Dec 2011 T =  50 °F 					
    							
    Ave Vel =	2732						
    Std Dev =	36						
    ES =	102						
    High =	2790			 			
    Low =	2688			 			
    N =	6						
    							
    							
    130 gr Nosler BT  55.0 grains H4350 wtd lot 22655 R-P cases WLR OAL 3.3"	
    							
    29 Dec 2011 T =  50 °F 					
    							
    Ave Vel =	2833		                                                    	 			
    Std Dev =	15			 			
    ES =	39			 			
    High =	2848			 			
    Low =	2809			 			
    N =	5						
    
    130 gr Federal Fusion (pulled)  55.0 grs IMR4350 wtd lot RBS (60's) mixed cases Fed 210S OAL 3.225"
    					 	 		
    8 Feb 2012 T =  50 °F 							
    								
    Ave Vel =	2942			 				
    Std Dev =	5			 				
    ES =	10			 				
    High =	2948			 				
    Low =	2938			 				
    N =	5							
    								
    								
    130 gr Federal Fusion (pulled)  55.0 grs IMR4350 wtd lot RBS (60's) mixed cases Fed 210S OAL 3.225"
    					 	 		
    14 Mar 2012 T =  80 °F 						
    								
    Ave Vel =	2952							
    Std Dev =	53							
    ES =	119							
    High =	2999							
    Low =	2880							
    N =	6							
    								
    								
    130 gr Nosler  55.0 grs AA 4350 wtd lot 9-95 Rem cases WLR OAL 3.250"		
    								
    8 Feb 2012 T =  50 °F 							
    								
    Ave Vel =	2961			 				
    Std Dev =	6			 				
    ES =	16			 				
    High =	2967			 				
    Low =	2951			 				
    N =	5							
    	
    							
    							
    						
    							
    130 gr Federal Fusion (pulled)  55.0 grs IMR4350 wtd lot RBS (60's) mixed cases Fed 210S OAL 3.225"
    					 	 		
    8 Feb 2012 T =  50 °F 							
    								
    Ave Vel =	2942			 				
    Std Dev =	5			 				
    ES =	10			 				
    High =	2948			 				
    Low =	2938			 				
    N =	5							
    								
    								
    130 gr Federal Fusion (pulled)  55.0 grs IMR4350 wtd lot RBS (60's) mixed cases Fed 210S OAL 3.225"
    					 	 		
    14 Mar 2012 T =  80 °F 						
    								
    Ave Vel =	2952							
    Std Dev =	53							
    ES =	119							
    High =	2999							
    Low =	2880							
    N =	6							
    								
    								
    130 gr Nosler  55.0 grs AA 4350 wtd lot 9-95 Rem cases WLR OAL 3.250"		
    								
    8 Feb 2012 T =  50 °F 							
    								
    Ave Vel =	2961			 				
    Std Dev =	6			 				
    ES =	16			 				
    High =	2967			 				
    Low =	2951			 				
    N =	5							
    
    150 gr Speer Flat Base  53.0 grains H4350 wtd lot 22655 R-P cases WLR OAL 3.250"
    							
    29 Dec 2011 T =  51 °F 					
    							
    Ave Vel =	2704		                                                       	 			
    Std Dev =	18			 			
    ES =	49			 			
    High =	2727			 			
    Low =	2678		         	 			
    N =	5
    [/SIZE]

    FN270.jpg

    270WinFNDeluxe130Nosler55grsAA4350_zps9bbb2480.jpg

    270WinFNDeluxe130Nosler55grsH4350_zps322d6630.jpg

    270WinFNDeluxe150Speer540grsWC852_zps3cc92256.jpg

    270WinFNDeluxe150Speer550grsWC852_zps2a3143bf.jpg

    270WinFNDeluxe150Speer530grsH4350_zpsd6ed1f74.jpg



    I ran a test with IMR 4831 in my 270 Win. This is a very popular powder in this caliber. It turns out to be the velocity champ in this rifle. As usual, I lubricated my cases and shot them lubricated. This breaks the friction between chamber and bolt and applies the full thrust of the case to the bolt. Normally I detect maximum loads by having either a stiff bolt lift, blown or leaking primers. Lubing the cases removes the parasitic friction between case and chamber, forcing the system to fully load the bolt. This removes false indications of low pressure. When a dry case is fired in a dry chamber, the case carries some of the load, often stretching the case, but since the case is carrying the load, you will experience an easy bolt lift even though the load is over pressure. Dry cases in dry chambers will disguise an over pressure load. Well, that is what normally happens. Here, I did not feel a stiff bolt lift even though I pushed 130 grain bullets to 3200 fps. I also did not experience any blown primers or leaking primers. However, on reloading these cases, I found a few with loose pockets, which is a positive indication of too much pressure, and so, in the future, I am going to keep any IMR 4831 velocities to 3000 fps or less.

    In terms of accuracy, this rifle still does not like 130 grain bullets regardless of the powder.

    Code:
    [SIZE="3"]
    [B]FN Deluxe 24" Barrel new Wolff 22 pound mainspring[/B]
    								
    130 gr Federal Fusion (pulled)  57.0 grs IMR 4831 lot 022414 W-W Super, Fed210S, OAL 3.30 
    
    hornady sizing lube left on cases 
     			                                             
    2 Sep 2014 T =  92 °F 							
    								
    Ave Vel =	2959			 				
    Std Dev =	26			 				
    ES =	65			 				
    High =	3005			 				
    Low =	2940			 				
    N =	5							
    								
    				
    								
    130 gr Federal Fusion (pulled)  58.0 grs IMR 4831 lot 022414 W-W Super, Fed210S, OAL 3.30 
    			hornady sizing lubed cases	 			                                             
    2 Sep 2014 T =  92 °F 							
    								
    Ave Vel =	3041			 				
    Std Dev =	23			 				
    ES =	63			 				
    High =	3067			 				
    Low =	3004			 				
    N =	5							
    								
    								
    130 gr Federal Fusion (pulled)  59.0 grs IMR 4831 lot 022414 W-W Super, Fed210S, OAL 3.30 
    			hornady sizing lubed cases	 			                                             
    2 Sep 2014 T =  92 °F 							
    								
    Ave Vel =	3126							
    Std Dev =	16							
    ES =	43							
    High =	3149							
    Low =	3106							
    N =	5		 					
    								
    slight primer cupping around firing pin, probable primer pocket expansion, over max load	
    								
    130 gr Federal Fusion (pulled)  60.0 grs IMR 4831 lot 022414 W-W Super, Fed210S, OAL 3.30 
    			hornady sizing lubed cases	 			                                             
    2 Sep 2014 T =  93 °F 							
    								
    Ave Vel =	3215			 				
    Std Dev =	18			 				
    ES =	48			 				
    High =	3240			 				
    Low =	3192			 				
    N =	5		 					
    								
    slight primer cupping around firing pin, probable primer pocket expansion, over max load[/SIZE]
     
  11. FLIGHT762

    FLIGHT762 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    275
    Location:
    Nor Cal/SFO area
    Barnes 110 TTSX / 52.0 Grs. Reloader 15 / R/P case / Federal 210 / 3.300" COL.

    3200 FPS out of a Tikka stainless T-3 lite L/H. Shoots around MOA.
     
  12. CarJunkieLS1

    CarJunkieLS1 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2013
    Messages:
    1,278
    Location:
    N. Alabama
    Slamfire I posed a question to Darrel Buell about lubing the cases before you fire them during load development. I mean no disrepect but to me and Darrel Buell who has forgotten more about shooting and reloading than I'll ever know, he is a long range shooting instructor and captain of the US F-T/R rifle team.

    This is what he had to say:

    No!!! This is completely wrong. The case is *intended* to expand, and bear part of the reaction force. If you remove this, the bolt lugs take 100% of the force. If the case has been small-base sized, the impulse on the bolt face can be considerable.

    Furthermore, unless you've had your bolt lugs lapped (except for Savage), most factory rifles are primarily bearing on one lug or the other; i.e. only one lug is bearing most of the pressure. You don't want 60,000 psi directed at only one lug; that way lies sheared off lugs, and high particulate of bolt material in the face region.
     
  13. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Messages:
    10,684
    Location:
    Alabama
    This is going to be a massive high jacking of this thread, and I am sorry for it. But the concept that grease or oil on the cartridge creates a dangerous condition is an interesting case of the fallacy of “argument from authority”. After reviewing all the information I can find , I am of the opinion that this was originally created by the US Army Ordnance Department to hide and misdirect failures from the population of 1 million “low number” M1903’s.

    These rifles were made at Army Arsenals and as the designer and manufacturer, any inherent problems with rifle, in the hands of civilians or Navy and Marine personnel, were the responsibility of the US Army. The Army also wanted competitors to stop greasing their bullets. Bullets of the period fouled something awful. Until you shoot those cupro nickel bullets you have no idea of how bad the fouling. I have, I shot 303 Iraqi and that stuff left huge lumps of fouling in the barrel, and it took weeks to remove the lumps using Sweets. However, dipping bullets in axle grease positively prevented all bullet fouling. I was very surprised at the effectiveness of greased bullets. At the time the Army was loaning out rifles to Gun Clubs and to competitors at the National Matches. I am certain that shooters got dirt on their greased bullets, scratching the chambers/barrels of these loaner rifles. It makes sense the Army did not like this. So, prior to the 1921 National Matches, a Council of Colonels ordered Major Townsend Whelen to “prove the evils of grease”. This is after Major Whelen told the world he had cured cupro nickel fouling by coating the bullet with a thick layer of tin.

    Incidentally, Major Whelen’s cure for bullet fouling, was far worse than the disease. It turns out that tin from the bullet, migrated into the brass neck of the cartridge case. The phenomena is called “cold welding”. If you study this, as I have, Major Townsend Whelen noticed extremely heavy bullet pull from day one, and ignored the implications, but the migration of tin into the case neck only increased with time, so the longer this ammunition was around, the more solid the weld between bullet and case. The weld was so strong that case necks were torn off the cases and traveled down the barrel with the bullet. Instead of being the greatest invention in the history of the world, as it was ballyhooed at that time, this cure for bullet fouling created a bore obstruction and blew up rifles.

    All of this was played down, and out right denied in print in the Arms and the Man. Neither Major Whelen, Hatcher, nor the Army admitted that the primary cause of rifle blowups at the 1921 National Matches were due to bad Army ammunition fired in structurally deficient Army rifles. Instead, the Army blamed greased bullets. A side story, no one outside of a few in the Ordnance Department knew about their structurally defective rifles, even though, three years previous, the Army had conducted a massive investigation, shutting the production lines of their Arsenals down in the middle of a shooting war, as their problem of overheated steel components was being investigated and corrected. Not a peep of this appears in the literature of the times, and it does not appear until the publication of Hatcher’s Notebook in 1947, forty years after the fact.

    Quite literally, the Army did not want to know or have anyone else know, about problems or deficiencies about their weapons. This is was expressed in the August 1922 Infantry Journal:

    Infantry Journal 1922
    Notes from the Chief of Infantry August 1922 page 196
    Courtesy Google Books

    I will sum up the statement: Army weapons are perfect, they cannot be improved on, anyone expressing different is subversive and disloyal. In my opinion, this was, and still is, the informal and formal policy of the United States Army.

    The idea that greased bullets or greased cases creates a dangerous condition would have died decades ago if it had not been in the 1947 book “ Hatcher’s Notebook” . Hatcher’s Notebook is the Event Horizon for all the concerns expressed in the American shooting community about greased bullets, oiled bullets, lubricated bullets, lubricated cases, oiled cases. Townsend Whelen is the man actually responsible for creating the data set that the Army and Hatcher used to claim dangerous pressure increases. These men are revered by the American shooting community. Given the statue of Hatcher and Townsend Whelen (recently called “Mr Rifleman” or “the Dean of Riflemen”) within the shooting community, and the decades spanning their unchallenged claims that grease (and/or oil) dangerously raised pressures, it is no wonder that the shooting community is thoroughly indoctrinated with this belief. It is however, fallacious.

    The only real problem I have, since the participants are all dead, particularly General Hatcher, is the extent to which they themselves believed that grease caused over pressure conditions in spite of all the evidence they had to have seen which contradicted what they were telling the American public. General Hatcher is a most peculiar case and the strong reverence for General Hatcher is such that by claiming he is not infallible, in fact, is quite fallible, will result in strong and vicious push back from his fan base.

    When authority is considered so highly that no one dares or cares to challenge them, when these same Authorities are wrong, they can cause amazing damage and delay progress within society. It is very human to appeal to authorities, and since no one can know everything about everything, at some point we all rely on experts. But time has shown again and again, experts are not infallible or inerrant, they have their bias, their knowledge gaps. No matter how high a pedestal they are put on, eventually they are shown to be imperfect humans.

    I think it is totally amazing that Hatcher writes what he does and yet he was the Head of Ordnance during WW2. He had access to the interiority of the Ordnance military industrial complex. He had authority over all the test labs, test facilities, even equipment manufacturers, which is why of course, why his authority is so high among the shooting community. We don’t know all of what Hatcher knew. He is a primary source on single heat treat 03’s, the blow up lists, the development of the Garand, his Textbook of Firearms Identification and Evidence was a primary forensic source for law enforcement. In so many instances Hatcher is the sole and primary source. And yet, knowing what he actually did know, knowing what his associates knew, knowing what he therefore should have known, I find his section on greased bullets and the tin can ammunition extraordinary. How could he not have known that what he was writing was bunk? Based on readings on human psychology, I am discovering that the human capacity for self deception is infinite. People shape their views to that of their peers. To belong to a human hierarchal organization, you have to agree with the belief’s that of organization, or you will be ostracized. The American public has already forgotten the build up to the Iraqi invasion, but I remember the propaganda of the era, that is Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and was going to attack America. Anyone expressing opinions different was denounced as disloyal. Anyone remember the boycotts against the Dixie Chicks? http://www.thenation.com/article/te...k-dared-hit-bush-war-and-hate-campaign-began/ What I believe for General Hatcher, is that he genuinely believed that greased bullets and greased and oiled cartridges dangerously raised pressures even as he accepted the fact that greased and oiled cartridges were necessary for the safe and reliable function of various Army weapons and of a multitude of military weapons throughout the world. Humans are not rational nor consistent, and as such, human will accept as true, contradictory concepts which are mutually exclusive.

    This is going to torque the sensitivities of those who put Hatcher on a pedestal, and live with a romantic view of Springfield Armory and the Army, but I am going to call Hatcherism the belief that

    Cartridges should never be greased or oiled, and the bullets should never be greased. Grease on the cartridge or in the chamber creates excessive and hazardous pressure. It operates to reduce the size of the chamber and thus increases the density of loading and the pressure.

    These are Townsend Whelen’s words; General Hatcher did not come up with this belief system , it is in fact based on a data set created by then Major Townsend Whelen, but Hatcher is the “St Paul” of this religion. Without him this would have faded away and at best, would have been a historical curiosity. Hatcher is the source from whom all Hatcherites go, quoting chapter and verses from his 1947 book, Hatcher’s Notebook, on greased bullets, greased cartridges, lubricated cartridges and pressures.

    So, what does the historical record say about Hatcherism?:

    Well, how could Hatcherism be true, and yet Hatcher be wrong? Here is an excerpt that Hatcher wrote in 1933:

    Army Ordnance Magazine, March-April 1933
    Automatic Firearms, Mechanical Principles used in the various types, by J. S. Hatcher. Chief Smalls Arms Division Washington DC.

    Retarded Blow-back Mechanism………………………..

    There is one queer thing, however, that is common to almost all blow-back and retarded blow-back guns, and that is that there is a tendency to rupture the cartridges unless they are lubricated. This is because the moment the explosion occurs the thin front end of the cartridge case swells up from the internal pressure and tightly grips the walls of the chamber. Cartridge cases are made with a strong solid brass head a thick wall near the rear end, but the wall tapers in thickness until the front end is quiet thin so that it will expand under pressure of the explosion and seal the chamber against the escape of gas to the rear. When the gun is fired the thin front section expands as intended and tightly grips the walls of the chamber, while the thick rear portion does not expand enough to produce serious friction. The same pressure that operates to expand the walls of the case laterally, also pushes back with the force of fifty thousand pounds to the square inch on the head of the cartridge, and the whole cartridge being made of elastic brass stretches to the rear and , in effect, give the breech block a sharp blow with starts it backward. The front end of the cartridge being tightly held by the friction against the walls of the chamber, and the rear end being free to move back in this manner under the internal pressure, either one of two things will happen. In the first case, the breech block and the head of the cartridge may continue to move back, tearing the cartridge in two and leaving the front end tightly stuck in the chamber; or, if the breech block is sufficiently retarded so that it does not allow a very violent backward motion, the result may simply be that the breech block moves back a short distance and the jerk of the extractor on the cartridge case stops it, and the gun will not operate.

    However this difficultly can be overcome entirely by lubricating the cartridges in some way. In the Schwarzlose machine gun there is a little pump installed in the mechanism which squirts a single drop of oil into the chamber each time the breech block goes back. In the Thompson Auto-rifle there are oil-soaked pads in the magazine which contains the cartridges. In the Pedersen semiautomatic rifle the lubrication is taken care of by coating the cartridges with a light film of wax.

    Blish Principle….There is no doubt that this mechanism can be made to operate as described, provided the cartridge are lubricated, …. That this type of mechanism actually opens while there is still considerable pressure in the cartridge case is evident from the fact that the gun does not operate satisfactorily unless the cartridges are lubricated.

    Thompson Sub-Machine Gun: … Owing to the low pressure involved in the pistol cartridge, it is not necessary to lubricate the case.


    If lubricated cases dangerously increase bolt thrust, as Hatcher says in his Notebook why are lubricated cases being used in blowback or delayed blowback mechanisms? Maybe the laws of physics are different for these firearms than other type of firearms? Maybe one mechanism operates using one set of physical laws and another mechanism has its own unique laws of physics. Maybe certain mechanisms operate outside the known laws of the universe? Someone without a background in science and physics could agree that all of these ideas were true, that the physical laws of the universe are just a difference of opinion between people.


    What about Melvin Johnson and his comments?:

    Army Ordnance Oct 1936 What Price Automatic?, by Melvin M. Johnson, Jr.

    Several methods have been devised to retard the unlocking of the block or bolt mechanically. The most appealing point in such a system is consolidation of the “automatic” parts in the breech. However, there is one serious difficulty. The conventional cartridge case does not lend itself to such a system unless adequate lubrication is provided, such as grease or wax or oil on the cases or in the chamber. Thus, the Schwarzlose machine gun has an automatic oil pump: the caliber 30 Thompson rifle (not the caliber 45 T.S.-M.G.) had oil pad in the magazine, and special “wax” was needed on the cases designed to be used in the Pedersen rifle.


    As to the historical use of oilers in fielded weapon systems, I recommend that all read The Machine Gun History, Evolution, and Development of Manual, Automatic, and Airborne Repeating Weapons by George M. Chinn Lieutenant Colonel, USMC VOLUME I OF FIVE VOLUMES



    Hatcherism works because so many American’s have to rely on arguments from authority. It is unfortunate that the vast number of Americans barely have reading and math skills at a American High School level. American schools graduate students who are not competitive at an international level, so having an American High School diploma is not an assurance of critical thinking, rational thinking, or much of an education at all. College statistics are somewhat easier to find, from STEM statistics on the web, around 9 percent of students enrolled in engineering and engineering technologies, and about 2-3 percent in mathematics and physical sciences. What the web publications don’t note, is the vast number of foreign students enrolled in Engineering and Science courses in US Universities. I took a short course at Georgia Tech not so long ago, and it was surprising how often, as a passenger in the Tech Trolley, that I was the only white man, or white person in the vehicle. In a nearby restaurant, tables of students were speaking Hindi, not English. Colleges may have 9 percent of the students in engineering, but those students are foreign and after graduation they don’t stay in the US. So my point is, there are not a lot of American’s who have either the education or background to challenge Army authority, particularly when the topic relates to mechanical engineering. Also combine this with the general ignorance of historical firearms. The primary source of information for Americans on life, the Universe, and everything, is movies, TV shows, and to a much smaller extent, in print magazines. Books are rarely read, but it turns out Hatcher’s Notebook is the Event Horizon for Hatcherities. This book is relatively cheap and gone through multiple editions and printings. I don’t know if it has been out of print since 1947. Current price is $32.00. When I purchased my new copy, at the time the price was $12.95. My copy is a bit shabby as it has been well read over the decades. Unfortunately, no one reads or has read Chinn’s Volumes on the Machine Gun even though these books have been in print since the early 1950’s. This series of books contradicts Hatcherism, in theory and in the physical examples of mechanisms that used oilers and greased cartridges. Not to say that any Hatcherite would acknowledge that the firearms and designs principles in these volumes contradict Hatcherism. It is more likely that a Hatcherite would ignore the contradictions, as Hatcher did, accepting mutually exclusive concepts as both true. And another issue was, the cost of owning Chinn’s books ensured that distribution was very limited. I picked up my copies at Gun Shows, and I paid over $100.00 for Volume I and Volume IV each. That was at a time when you could buy a copy of Hatcher’s Notebook for $20.00 or less. And even though Chinn’s series is free, on the web, http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/MG/

    No one reads books anyway. Vol IV is an outstanding source for firearm theory and operation, and Vol 1 has an extensive number of fielded military machine guns that used oilers and greased ammunition.

    More than anything else, Hatcherism shows the truth behind a saying attributed to one of the most reprehensible men in history: If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.
     
  14. ants

    ants Member

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    Suggest some posts might be transferred to a separate thread so Covelo-NdN can enjoy the fruits of his thread without hijack. The subject of greased ammo is very interesting! And it deserves consideration on its own.

    Indeed the hijack topic is very interesting, no doubt. But a man who starts a thread seeking help for his hunting ammo should be respected for his quest without serious diversion. Especially since he won't grease his bullets (it would foul the meat).

    My most sincere apologies if I'm wrong. :)
     
  15. CarJunkieLS1

    CarJunkieLS1 Member

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    I'm sorry about derailing the topic, but I thought it prudent to point out my opinion and another ,much more experienced shooter and reloader than I's opinion, on the matter or lubing cases before firing.

    IMO lubing a bullet and a case are completely different and lubing a bullet reduces barrel friction and fouling, moly coated bullets are a prime example.

    To lube a cartridge case doesn't make sense to me. I just don't see how negating the intended friction of a case on the chamber wall and placing full pressure on the bolt face and bolt lugs is a desired effect. I mean the reason catridge cases are primarily brass is because of the properties for it to expand and contract. As far as a semi auto goes there are better ways to prevent ripping case heads off than using lube to reduce "chamber friction". Adjustable gas block different gas port size, different buffets etc.
     
  16. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Interesting. Your forefathers would be rolling on the floor, frothing at the mouth in fury because they had been taught that greased bullets are dangerous. They had been taught this by the Army Ordnance Bureau, and yet, you think it is perfectly safe. How times change.

    I would agree on that.

    The shear path through those hardened steel locking lugs is about ½”. And yet, you believe that thin brass tube is there to take the load off those lugs?

    DSCF3874sectioned30-06onM1903boltface1_zps0001f434.jpg

    Maybe it is human intuition. Maybe you and your authority friend think the case is very strong. After all, you can’t crush it in your hand. Maybe you are confused in thinking that it is a strong pressure vessel, like a propane bottle, air tank, or fire extinguisher. I have run into posters who thought that the function of the barrel was to simply align the case with the tube, and it did not matter how much of the cartridge case was enclosed by the chamber. But, these ideas are fallacious. The entire locking mechanism and barrel chamber is there to support the cartridge case. That cartridge case is in fact a delicate creature and if it carries load, it will rupture. Varmit Al’s finite element analysis shows that when the case carries load, the case head is stretched, and in the absolute worst place.


    http://www.varmintal.com/a243z.htm

    picture from http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=10254509&postcount=27

    sectionedcasehead.jpg

    Your reloader, shooter, friend expert, this is what he wants?



    Oilers and greased rounds went on the ash heap of history sometime after WW2 when fluted chambers came into being.

    FlutedChamber.jpg

    Those flutes are there to break the friction between case and chamber and increase the bolt face load. If the flutes were not there, roller bolts would not function.

    ChamberFlutesMP5.jpg


    This is such a good idea that XTRAXN is using it

    XTRAXNchamberflutes_zpsa3e6b31b.jpg

    XTRAXNchamberflutesonfiredbrass_zps7a06e5bf.jpg

    http://www.larue.com/xtraxn™-technology-larue-tactical


    This is funny to me, because no where is LaRue Tactical calling what they are doing “case lubrication”, because they know that multitudes of current generation shooters would be rolling on the floor, frothing at the mouth in fury because they believe that case lubrication is dangerous. So they use “chamber release properties” and tell you that it reduces stress on the extractor, and they ignore the part about increasing the bolt thrust. They really know their customer, don’t they?

    The mechanism is designed to carry the full load of the cartridge case ignoring friction. Load is calculated as surface area times pressure, and the number that falls out is pounds force. Many have never figured out the connection between the maximum pressure limits in loading manuals and their firearms, but it comes down to load. The amount of pounds force on the structure. Exceed that recommended pressure, you exceed the load limits of your firearm. As long as you are below the recommended pressures, you are not exceeding the load limits of your firearm. A lot of shooters ignore the load the barrel carries. The barrel carries more load than the locking mechanism because there is more case surface area in contact with the chamber than there is with the locking mechanism. Ackley sold the shooting community a bunch of snake oil by claiming that his cartridge shapes carried load, therefore it was OK to load his cartridges to insanely high pressures. He was wrong. Asking the case to carry load deforms the case, and incidentally, the load does not go away into the dark universe. It goes someplace else, like the case and chamber. Ackley describes bulging the chamber on a Savage M99 and it is clear, he is clueless why it happened.
     
  17. CarJunkieLS1

    CarJunkieLS1 Member

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    I never said lubing a bullet with grease was safe and OK. You made a correlation between greasing bullets and lubing cases. I stated that they serve different purposes. And BTW moly coated bullets are safe grease is NOT.

    It's funny that you lube your cases before you fire them. And then you show facts that say that ways to oil and lube your camber "went to the ash heap" so you do it and say it's not a good idea...contradiction if I have ever seen one.

    And catridge case heads don't rupture upon firing because of friction between case and chamber walls. They fail because of excessive headspace, bad piece of brass, wore out piece of brass, etc. And brass "deforming" is kinda the point. I mean it's meant to become the size of the chamber, it actually seals the chamber off and sends all the gas down the barrel instead of backwards...and yes you are right a barrel carries more load than the locking mechanism it's designed that way for a reason.

    Say that the barrel takes 75% of the load and the locking mechanism takes 25% I just don't see how reducing the barrels load and increasing the mechanisms load by way of reducing chamber friction with lube is a good idea EVER.
     
  18. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Sorry, read something into something that was not there.

    Well the Army claimed that greased bullets pinched the case necks, and also made the correct assumption that grease would rub off into the chamber.

    Why are greased bullets bad? What basis do you have to say that moly greased bullets are good, and plain old greased bullets are bad?

    As long as the load, either on chamber or locking mechanism is below the designer’s load limits nothing bad will happen.

    I have edited this because I wrote too snarky a reply last night.What I see is confusion about the role of the cartridge case and the rifle mechanism. The American shooter, for almost a century, has been educated to believe that the rifle action is weak and the cartridge case is strong. There is nothing less correct than this false idea. Quarter hard cartridge brass has a yield around 40-44 Kpsia. For ductile materials, yield is the point at which the material deforms. Non ductile materials, like concrete blocks, just break, not much yield or deformation to be found in them. Below yield, for ductile materials, the material will expand, but on release of the stress, it will contract back to original dimensions. I don't want to get into fatigue life, but at some point, at some stress cycle, all ductile materials will fatigue fracture. Which includes brass and steel.

    Steel, even non alloy steels, take much more stress to yield than cartridge brass. Old Class C steels, the stuff that Springfield Armory used for barrels, it had these properties:

    Yield Point, 75,000 lbs per sq. in.
    Tensile Strength 110,000 lbs. per sq.in.
    Elongation 20.0 per cent.
    Contraction of Area, 50.0 per cent.

    Class A and class C steels, the stuff used in Krag's and single and double heat treat Springfields, are so low grade, that today, they are used for rebar, rail road spikes, etc. Springfield Armory later used WD2340, Nickel steel. It is such a high nickel content steel that no one uses it anymore, because of the cost of nickle, but I found one inch round AISI 4820 which was similar. For that material, mock carburized, 1450 F reheat, water quench, the ultimate strength was 163,000 psi and the yield strength was 120,000 psi, elongation at break 15%. Many modern receivers are made from 4140. For a 1 in round AISI 4140 Steel, normalized at 870°C (1600°F), reheated to 845°C (1550°F), oil quenched, 260°C (500°F) temper, ultimate strength 270,000 psi, yield 240,000 psi, elongation at break 11%. All of these alloy steel strengths can vary varied by heat treatment, but even in an annealed state, they are much stronger than cartridge brass. Their fatigue life is also much, much longer than quarter hard cartridge brass.

    It turns out, instead of the cartridge case being strong, the cartridge case is weak. The steel barrel and steel receiver assembly are there to support the brass cartridge case as much as possible. As little of the cartridge case is left un supported as possible, because, at the pressures modern cartridges operate, it is very easy to blow a sidewall of a brass case. The brass case is the weakest link. The brass case will fail long before the barrel or the locking mechanism, assuming everything is well built and not defective. If the case head fails, and the case head is the thickest part of the case, the above example ought to be a warning that things can get out of control.

    Now the idea that the case is strong and the action is weak has lead to some crazy practices. P.O Ackley built a celebratory status on this fallacious idea. He claimed his straight walled cases carried the load, reducing the bolt load, and claimed that allowed reloaders to add lots of gunpowder to up the velocity. This is nonsense, dangerous non sense. He did not pressure test his claims till much later, what I have recently seen is that his 30-06 AI runs around 80,000 psia. That is pretty darn hot. Even today, Gunwriters claim that the shape of the cartridge reduces the load on the bolt face, as if that was desirable. You don’t want the case carrying load. It is not a structural element, it is a gas seal. If the case carries load, you deform the case. Such as the example above, say the chamber normally carries 75 percent of the load and the locking mechanism 25%. Then, asking the case to carry load, lets say 12%, sure you have reduced the load on the bolt face, but you are now stretching the cartridge case, the weakest element in the system. Anyone who has had a case head separation has required the case to carry load. I am surprised that no one seems to have looked at Varmit Al’s finite element analysis, but when the case carries load, not only are the sidewalls stressed, so is the case head. Varmit Al shows the stress path going exactly through the case head, as the rupture pictured above. If the material in the case head has a brass flaw, additional stress can cause it to fail, which is what I believe happened in the picture. It is bad practice to ask the case to carry load, but American’s have been lead to believe, that it is desirable.

    So, when you ask to the case to carry load, typically you are reducing the load on the locking mechanism. But is that desirable, is that a desirable trade off to stress the gas seal in order to take the load off something with a 1/2" shear path of steel? What exactly do you think you are going to achieve?

    Adding load to the cartridge case did not prevent low number M1903's from blowing up. After the 1921 National Matches the Army banned greased bullets and of course, greased cartridges. But since their rifles were so defectively manufactured, as a population, even this duct tape solution did not prevent structurally deficient rifles from blowing up on the firing line. If you search the web, you will find examples of low number M1903's that have blown up with modern ammunition, non greased bullets and cartridges. These things are still out there, still hurting people.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2016
  19. Covelo-NdN

    Covelo-NdN Member

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    Thank you old heeler, B zone is a tough zone to hunt. last year a 32" blacktail came out a Covelo.
     
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