2nd concealed carry person on scene

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by Samari Jack, Nov 22, 2010.

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  1. Samari Jack

    Samari Jack Member

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    I'm constantly running scenario about what if. One I have not been able to come to grips with is as follows: You are in a grocery store, convenience store or other public place. One or more hoods shows up with a gun with intent of robbery or mayhem and is a direct threat to the person behind the counter and others in the store. You don't know it but another c carry is there too. How do you identify yourselves? By my looks and dress, sometimes I look pretty scraggly if I've been outside working and could easily be shot for looking like a partner in crime. The only thing I've been able to come up with to date is to hold up one hand, palm forward and say "don't shoot, legal armed citizen" are the like. My concern is this might give the bad guy the time to shoot me or the other good guy if my weapon was drawn. I'm really not particularly comfortable with this.

    What would others do if one or more CCW holders came upon each other when threatened by deadly force from one or more bad guys?
     
  2. cbrgator

    cbrgator Member

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    That's a real tough one. Your best bet is probably just to hope you recognize one another before things get even hairier. When you pull out your gun, there is always a risk that you will be mistaken for a criminal.

    In your situation, when the violence is not directed at you specifically, it is your responsibility to make sure that you have analyzed the situation to ensure that other guy who is carrying hasn't acted first. If you are responding to a 3rd party threat, it is both of your duties to ensure that neither of you shoot either of you by recognizing who is who before taking action.

    The predicament you are asking about identifies one of the inherent risks of ccw and I am not sure there is a correct answer.
     
  3. esheato

    esheato Member

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    Interesting...and honestly a scenario I had never considered before.

    I'm not sure what I'd do.
     
  4. Beaux Nehr

    Beaux Nehr Member

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    The odds are so low, and context, along with body language, is so important in a situation like that, that I don't think it should be considered a legitimate problem.
     
  5. xXxplosive

    xXxplosive Member

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    I'd be looing for cover first and if I had to draw I'd be screaming "Conceal Carry Permit" very loudly while opening up......I guess.
     
  6. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    Nobody cares if you have a CCW permit only that you are armed. I don't know what I would do in such a situation but I would suggest NOT looking like a hood as my first response. If your appearance suggests "unsavory character" change it. That is the one thing you do have control of.
     
  7. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    I'll add it to the list of reasons not to draw to protect third parties. Who do I shoot? Easy. The guy who is trying to kill ME. Making it any more complicated than that explodes into a whole lot of what ifs.

    I'm not jumping into gunfights, I'm looking for the back door. But if I WERE in the middle of something, and there was more than one guy with the gun, I would have to make a judgement call by demeanor, appearance, the likelihood that one of the people is trained. If at all possible, I wouldn't draw at all if I wasn't sure who the bad guy was. Justifying your actions is hard enough when you are defending your own life. Now you are talking about presuming to know what was in the heads of total strangers when bullets were flying. Sounds like a good way to go to jail to me.
     
  8. .45&TKD

    .45&TKD Member

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    I had a CCW instructor suggest that "Please don't shoot" said quickly and loudly can sound a lot like "Police, don't shoot". He said that impersonating an officer in a situation like that would be a hard charge to make stick.
     
  9. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Another armed good guy in the room who mistakes you for a criminal? Well, that is a risk, I guess. Less of one than the robber's having an accomplice, I think. Less of one than having my pulling a gun start a shooting spree that might not have happened but for my action. Less of one than my hitting an innocent. Perhaps less of one than being shot by arriving police officers.

    My suggestion is to read Post 6 and heed that advice.
     
  10. mcdonl

    mcdonl Member

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    I am not sure what I would do. I know I would move to cover (without ever being seen if possible...) and then I guess I would just read the situation.

    I feel compelled to say that my first concern is to me and my family, and that I would not engage in a gun fight unless it meant saving my life. But, I can not say for certain that I could witness the slaying of someone elses 17 year old daughter running a cash register trying to earn money for college. Would I expect/hope someone would come to my daughters aid?

    Now, as far as how would I identify myself as one of the good guys? Well, if I am drawing my pistol I am using it. I would hope that the fact I am shooting at the badguy would be enough for another CCW to stay out of it.

    Also consider the other folks in the store. Is that badguy standing in front of a bread display with a 6 year old hiding behind it? So many variables. I think I will retreat to my safe room and call 911....
     
  11. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree. That would be a terrible thing to live with.

    Problem is, while the clerk is surely in danger, the perp may not intend to shoot unless provoked; the likelihood that the commotion that might result result from someone else pulling a gun would cause him to shoot is not insignificant, and the likelihood that shots fired would reliably prevent him from pulling the trigger is too low for me.

    She could be slain or grievously injured either way--I'd hate to witness it, and I'd hate to be the one to set the events in motion to make it happen.

    We all visualize the hypothetical scene a little differently, and with the inherent variation, there may be no right answer, but my general philosophy aligns pretty well with mljdeckard in Post #6.
     
  12. luigi

    luigi Member

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    First the odds of 1 let alone 2 permit holders being there at the exact same time while the store is being robbed are vanishing small. That said, I don’t carry a handgun for the purpose of intervening in armed robberies so if another permitee decides to play hero I’m inclined to keep my mouth shut and let him.
     
  13. mcdonl

    mcdonl Member

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    I hear you Kleanbore... mine too. I hope that if ever presented I will have the skill that tells me where the line is, and when/if to cross it.

    I think a lot of it with me is that I am the type of person who routinly goes into dangerous situations to help others. I do so relying on my training... but still, it is in my nature.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2010
  14. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    Not where I live. I have a CCW,my wife has a CCW one of my 2 daughters has a CCW. I'll wagger that more of my friends have a CCW than don't. Having 2 or more CCW holders in one spot in my town is a very common scenario.
     
  15. luigi

    luigi Member

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    Last edited: Nov 22, 2010
  16. mcdonl

    mcdonl Member

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    I like to think that I have a plan, and like any good plan you need a contingency. I would sit by and watch a store get robbed. Wouldnt bother me in the least bit. I could even sit by and watch my own possesions get robbed.

    I will not say though, that I could sit by and watch another human being be shot and killed in my presence. It has nothing to do with my CCW it is more to do with who I am as a man.
     
  17. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
    Edmund Burke. We all know this to be true but sometimes doing nothing is the best thing. We also know that sometimes you HAVE to act or someone is going to get hurt. We need to have the wisdom to understand which occassion is happening before us and act accordingly.
     
  18. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

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    I'll relate a couple of real life incidents to help clarify how dangerous this really is.

    1. An off-duty LEO pulls into a gas station and sees a DV situation where one is about to stab the other. He steps out of his car and orders the assailiant to stop. Just at that moment a squad car pulls up...they had been called by the station clerk...points a shotgun at the off-duty officer and orders him to drop his gun. The off-duty officer yells, "I'm an officer, I'm stopping a crime in progress"...the responding officer yells back, "I don't care, drop the gun".

    This is very common when officers don't know each other. Even officers who do know each other, might not recognize each other, under stress, when one isn't in uniform.

    2. Off-duty LEO pulls into a strip mall parking lot. Sees a male chasing a female across the lot. Sees her trip and the male pull a gun out and points it at her on the ground.

    The off-duty LEO gets out of his car and is about to fire a shot to save the female, but decides to issue a verbal order to stop instead. It was his lucky day, because the male chasing the female was a undercover officer, chasing a female robbery suspect...also the undercover officer's partner was just coming upon the scene and saw what he believed to be the females partner about to shoot his partner, had drawn his gun and was about to save his partner by shooting the BG. The only thing that stopped him was the shouted order, by the off-duty officer

    Just food for thought if/when you consider pulling your CCW and if you should issue a verbal challenge...sadly the only time you can be pretty confident of the circumstances is after the first shot has been fired
     
  19. Sniper X

    Sniper X Member

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    Anything can and will happen. I think about what I will do in any instance, but in this case I would not worry about another cCw person thinking I was a crim if I drew on the crim and said, Drop the gun, you are under arrest! Which is true since you are effecting a citizens arrest, they will think you are a cop, and there is no reason why you need them to NOT think you are a cop in this instance. And of course, you didn't say you are a police officer......
     
  20. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    hope to hell the person had half way decent sit. awareness and can tell you (not hood dressed) from the robbers. Ordering them to stop as you fire helps to establish that you are not a robber.

    Also, I think it was Las Vegas, a off duty PD was in a gas station using the rest room, comes out and its being robbed, pulls on the BG's who flee (forget if shots were fired) chased them out the front door, only to be gunned down by a responding patrol car, summoned by the silent alarm.
     
  21. xXxplosive

    xXxplosive Member

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    Remember hearing on the radio in my car years ago about a guy intent on committing a armed robbery in NYC. This is how I remember it went.

    BG takes his car to the robbery scene and has two flat tires on the way.
    Leaves the car and gets on a bus. Takes the bus a couple of blocks and the bus breaks down. BG gets off the bus and walks the rest of the way. Arrives at the liquor store and walks in. Approaches the counter but notices 3 customers shopping in the store. BG pulls a gun announces a hold up and the 3 shoppers open up on him from 3 different locations in the store as well as the store owner behind the counter, 4 armed men against the BG. One was a Transit Authority Cop, the other was a NYC Detective and the 3rd was a Security Guard all strangers to each other.

    Conclusion: The BG survived the shooting......Ya just never know.
     
  22. mcdonl

    mcdonl Member

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    Where do I sign up for THAT Class :)

    Good discussion.
     
  23. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    I don't even go to parties without an invitation.

    I'm certainly not going to a gunfight without being personally invited to participate, and then only if I can't find some way to get out of it. Anybody who thinks there's going to be time to play Spin The Bottle when guns are drawn needs to do some serious reconsideration, as far as I can tell.

    YMMV of course...

    lpl
     
  24. Skribs

    Skribs Member

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    xXxplosive, reminds me of the Darwin Award where someone walks around a cop car to get into a gun store in a town where half the people are CCers. Didn't even finish "this is a hold up" before the cop and owner had emptied half a mag and the rest of the patrons had drawn.

    My thoughts: If the other person has a weapon on someone, I would consider this a threat. My first thought wouldn't be to draw, though. My first thought would be to find a good place of cover and call 911. This would:
    -Let anyone else know that I am not part of the BG group.
    -Allow me to tell the cops "I'm wearing ____ and I'm armed, please don't shoot me when you get here."
    -Give me time to assess the situation.

    Once I've called for backup, I would probably draw and tell the person to stand down. But I don't think I'd shoot unless A) He has already shot someone, and is pointing at someone else; or B) He points the gun towards me (or moves like he's going to). I'm not saying I shouldn't have defended the first person that was shot, but up until that point, I couldn't be sure whether this is a hardened criminal or just some thug trying to make a few quick bucks.
     
  25. jimmyraythomason

    jimmyraythomason Member

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    Hmmmm.....could be.
     
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