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2nd Tier Pistols / The $85 kick in the

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by 1006, Sep 4, 2013.

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  1. 1006

    1006 Member

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    Ok, that Taurus thread got me thinking. We all know the brands, Tanfoglio, Taurus, Keltec, All the Various CZ/Tanfoglio knock offs, bersa etc... I'm sure their are a few more. How do they sell these things? 99% of the time for another $50 - $100.00 the buyer could have purchased a Smith, Ruger, glock etc. :scrutiny: Maybe I'm a bit jaded from experience but, this has got to be the Worst $80.00 you ever saved. :banghead: What say you?
     
  2. HOOfan_1

    HOOfan_1 Member

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    I've never known anyone to consider that they were "settling" for a Tanfoglio. I thought they were fairly highly regarded.

    Edit: Looking at the thread you are talking about, it doesn't seem most people agree with you about Taurus either....
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2013
  3. Inazone

    Inazone Member

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    I don't agree with your "tier" idea. There are people that are willing to pay $20 for a pair of jeans, and others who aren't interested in anything with a price tag under $200, mainly because of the brand name. While it's not impossible to think that there's a difference in quality at ten times the price, it'd be hard to claim that the quality is ten times greater. The same can be true comparing a $20,000 car to a $40,000 car. If a person's only requirements are a six-cylinder engine, four doors and front wheel drive, will they get twice the quality at twice the price, or is the higher price attributed to an upscale logo on the more expensive car?

    I know numerous satisfied owners of the "2nd tier" guns you mentioned, and own a few myself. I also own the more expensive guns. So far, with the exception of a warranty-covered repair on an old Taurus (which has otherwise been 100% reliable) I can't say that $100 more has ever bought me a demonstratably better gun. While it's possible that one gun may prove to me more durable and/or reliable over time, anything short of a catastrophic failure on a brand new gun has to take into account use and abuse, ammo, etc.

    Now, if you want to talk about custom-built or special-purpose guns, that's different.
     
  4. Dakotared

    Dakotared Member

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    Tanfoglio is 2nd tier? Some one should tell that to Eric Grauffel
     
  5. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    I also express my befuddlement at Tanfoglio being second tier. I have a number of pistols and none of them are as accurate as my Tanfoglio Elite Match in 10mm. While I certainly respect, say, a Smith & Wesson 1006 (and I own a couple of other Smiths), I would choose my Tanfoglio over the 1006 even if the Smith were $100 less.
     
  6. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    A lot of those pistols offer features not found on what may be considered upper level arms.

    For instance, if you like the CZ style of pistols, the Tanfoglio will get you into a pistol in 10MM or .38Super, caliber's not usually offered by CZ. In addition, you can get a .45ACP CZ type pistol from Tanfoglio in the mid-size gun rather than going to the very large CZ97.

    You may like the Beretta 92 style pistol, but not care for the slide mounted safety/decocker. With the Taurus PT92, you can get a very similar pistol with a frame mounted safety that may be more to your liking.
     
  7. 1006

    1006 Member

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    My Tier Ranking system is based purely on percentages. I used to work for a good sized sporting goods wholesaler were Firearms and accessories were the bulk of the Business. The Warranty / return rate on these 2nd tier pistols was about 300% higher than the Smiths, Rugers, colts, Etc.. That we sold. That's a big difference. :uhoh: $70 or $80 off is not a legitimate excuse for selling me a gun that doesn't work. I've been burned by a couple of these guns myself. (Before I worked in the Industry) so I've seen it from both sides. Guns are serious business and their quality control isn't.
     
  8. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    What Taurus thread? Or are you talking about the gentleman who bought his wife a gun she couldn't handle?
     
  9. allaroundhunter

    allaroundhunter Member

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    I believe that is it. Not sure how 1006 took away from that thread that Taurus (Tauri?) pistols are bad guns.... That OP just made a bad decision.
     
  10. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    1006, if rate of warranty work is the sole criteria of "tiers," then Ferrari is a third-tier manufacturer of cars compared to Honda.

    Different guns, like different cars, offer different things. There are brands whose primary focus is 100% OOB reliability. If that's your #1 criteria, then focus on those brands. There are other brands whose focus is on highest peak performance. Those brands, by virtue of tighter tolerances/fit, may require break-in periods or some tuning/tweaking to make 100% reliable. Different customers will have different tolerances for those things.
     
  11. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    So far, I've had no problems from my second-tier Taurus PT1911 or PT111.
     
  12. 1006

    1006 Member

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    I came to my conclusions based solely on my experience. Regarding Tanfoglio, my personal experience has been "one of the Least reliable guns on the market" I never said anything regarding accuracy, they are one of the most accurate out of the box guns you can buy. I'll ask this question: Is tanfoglio a good choice for a non Tweaker (avg gun buyer) not a target shooter, to purchase for a bedside home defense gun?
     
  13. FuzzyBunny

    FuzzyBunny Member

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    I bought a .22 Tanglfolio six shooter 20 years ago used for well under $100 and have shot the snot out of it. I also use it to introduce new folks to shooting. One friends wife will only go shooting with us if I promise to bring "that fun 6 shooter". Only gun she likes almost as much is my 10/22. She even used it to teach her daughter to shoot and learn gun safety with.

    I think I payed $45 and a six pack of beer for it. What a bargain for bringing 2 folks into the shooting community.
     
  14. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    I'd say Taurus has improved quite a bit in the past 20 years. And S&W has declined, esp. with their non-PC wheelguns. But in the end so much depends on the exact model you're talking about and the actual firearm in hand.
     
  15. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Got a buddy who's an "automotive repair technician" (with some thirty years experience) at a reputable major brand dealership ... He says that he does an awful lot of warranty work -- most of his warranty work -- on ... Jeeps and Chryslers ... even the high-end models.

    And how do you arrive at this conclusion? I just noted that at my LGS, a comparable S&W snubby was $300 more than a Charter Arms. A polymer Taurus was a little over $300, a Glock in the same caliber, $599. There are some folks who absolutely, positively, just cannot scrape up that extra 85 or 100 bucks for what might ultimately prove only a marginally better handgun.

    Warranty return an indicator of quality? Ranking firearms on the basis of retail price? I'd submit that an awful lot of the higher-priced handguns might not go back to the factory because the owners might just know how to get them running and keep them running ... (Or perhaps because those that can afford them might just pay someone locally to fix a problem or simply stick the piece back in the safe and not stress about, because it's not his/her only gun).

    My 1400 dollar SA TRP, I was told, needed a 1000-round break-in ... I had maybe four malfunctions in the first hundred rounds, and it was perfect after that (note: wife absolutely couldn't rack the slide on the TRP). My buddy's $600 Taurus PT-1911 was shot alongside my Springer, and his was terrific right out of the box, just slightly less accurate.

    A Taurus PT-92 I bought new in 1991 for a little over 300 bucks has been perfect, absolutely flawless. A Taurus M-85 bought in 1992 has been great. I've gone through a couple Tanfoglio/Witness pistols and loved 'em.

    In the firearms community, gun snobbery and brand loyalty (plus bias against certain brands) certainly prevails. (As a Colt/SIG/S&W fan, I accept this.)

    Tier ranking? I'll subscribe to that concept in restaurants, but in firearms, it's whatever works for one's budget and needs. Lot more Kias on the roads than Porsches (at least where I live).
     
  16. 1006

    1006 Member

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    Ok, Just so were on the same page here. Taurus, Tanfoglio, bersa, or Kel-tec is in the same quality range as a Smith , FN, beretta, Glock. Etc..
     
  17. tommy.duncan

    tommy.duncan Member

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    My wife picked out the EAA Witness because of the balanced feel. The slide is lower into the frame and the frame extends the length of the slide. She had fired my 92F, USP, Glock, and P226. She could pick out her own and by feel this is the one she wanted. Other then getting extra magazines, this has been a good pistol.
    ____________________________________________________________________

    "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
    Albert Einstein
     
  18. tomrkba

    tomrkba Member

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    I learned that lesson years ago. Friends would buy ARCUS FN clones and other trash and then complain when the gun did not work.

    If I want a "knock about" gun, I just buy a spare used Glock and replace all the springs before the first range trip. I have had bad luck with CZ and consider them something I won't buy.
     
  19. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Ah, no ... Did anyone here say that? Please don't start a thread if you don't plan to read through responses for context. (Also, if you start a thread and expect everyone to agree with you, I can PM you some other forum links where that is the norm).
     
  20. ku4hx

    ku4hx Member

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    That's a fallacy known as generalization. You can't accurately describe the rest of the world based on what you know about a very small sampling.
     
  21. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    I know that you didn't say anything about accuracy. You started by talking about "tiers." Then it became clear that your sole criteria was likelihood of needing warranty work. But since that is not the sole criteria for all gun buyers, that doesn't seem like a universal tier sorting method.

    To answer your question, I would say "no." I don't think anyone should buy a gun and run only a trivial amount of ammo through it, then count on it as a defense tool. But if someone were determined to do that, then there are other guns that have a lower likelihood of biting you for it. You'd get away with it 99% of the time with the modern polymer guns. Or, probably, a Smith or Ruger wheelgun.

    But if you're going to run thousands of rounds through a gun, you learn about the reliability of that particular gun. 90% versus 99% of it running reliably OOB become irrelevant once you've got yours running reliably. And a Tanfoglio that is running reliably is a great, great gun that'll shoot better than a lot of guns costing 3x as much.
     
  22. HOOfan_1

    HOOfan_1 Member

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    It is also possible that the buyers went straight to the source with Glock, Ruger and Smith when they needed Warranty work, while Taurus and EAA customers went back to the retailer first.

    Plus like someone already mentioned. Keltec, Taurus, Tanfoglio and a bunch of others make things that others don't make.

    Apparently the Brazilian military thinks enough of Taurus
    Apparently the Argentinian military thinks enough of Bersa
     
  23. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Indeed. Want a double-stack 10mm in SAO with a manual safety on the frame? You're getting a Tanfoglio, unless you want to spend many thousands to have a truly custom double-stack 1911 built for you. Want a Beretta-92-pattern pistol with the safety on the frame? Unless you manage to track down a Steel I or a very early and rare pre-F model, both of which will cost a lot more than an extra $85, you're getting a Taurus.
     
  24. j1

    j1 Member

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    I own a Taurus. It was bought to cope with bears while walking in the woods. Do I want to kill a bear? No. A shot to scare ought to do the job. Is the Taurus my carry gun? No it is not. Mostly you get what you pay for.
     
  25. Deer_Freak

    Deer_Freak Member.

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    I am split on this issue. I have two Kel Tec's that are a royal PITA. They both break all the time. But they are easy to carry in my pocket so I keep fixing them. I have so many Hi Point pistols that I don't even know where they all are at. I never do anything to the Hi Points but spray them down with CLP when I am ready to shoot them. The Hi Points never break or give me any grief. I bought everyone of the Hi Points second hand. They all had the same problem, the magazine was rubbing the slide. Why the owners just gave the guns away instead of fixing them is beyond me. I didn't pay more than $50 for any of them.

    There is some luck involved with getting a good gun in todays world of hurry up and make production. I bought a Marlin XT-22MR NIB. The first one shot so high I couldn't adjust the iron sights without a grinder. Remlin sent a return label and I sent the gun back. In a few weeks there was a new remlin on my porch. The second remlin is one of the most accurate guns I have ever shot. At 100 yards I bounce golf balls into the woods. In fact, I have bounced so many golf balls in the woods with that rifle I find a couple golf balls every time I walk in that area.
     
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