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30-06 and 12 Gauge Slug

Discussion in 'Hunting' started by huntinhound8, Dec 21, 2010.

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  1. huntinhound8

    huntinhound8 Member

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    What will do more damage at ehhh 50 yards? 2 3/4" rifled slugs only.
     
  2. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator

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    Define "damage"?
     
  3. huntinhound8

    huntinhound8 Member

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    Damage...bigger exit wound. Things like that...
     
  4. Xfire68

    Xfire68 Member

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    I think it would depend allot on what type of projectile the 30.06 was shooting as well?

    The slug is bigger and weights more then any 30.06 bullet but, the 06 has speed on it's side?

    If I were a deer I would not want to be hit by either or would I?:evil:
     
  5. huntinhound8

    huntinhound8 Member

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    30-06...Remington Core-Lokt 180 grain soft point
     
  6. JDMorris

    JDMorris Member

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    Why does it matter? either will efficiently take a deer as long as you place the shot well and use the correct ammunition, to want a bigger exit wound is a little sick...
     
  7. huntinhound8

    huntinhound8 Member

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    "to want a bigger exit wound is a little sick... " Just want general info...
     
  8. janobles14

    janobles14 Member

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    its gonna be a slug at 50 yards if you are taking into account exit wounds and pure shock factor as well as "simple ballistics."

    a brenny at the muzzle is toting around 2900 ft/lbs at the muzzle and 1900 at 100 yds with a massive shock factor and exit wound at 50 yds.

    a 180 grainer from the 06 is around 2900 at the muzzle and 2500 at 100 yds but may not expand so well at 50 yds. it also doesnt have the same wound channel capabilities at this distance.
     
  9. ExtremeGunCare

    ExtremeGunCare Member

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    Ah what a great question. Well look at what you're utilizing the caliber for. You said 50 yards. At this range a 12 gage rifle slug will produce a bigger exit than a 30.06.

    I hunt in Missouri, ILL isn't too far from me and know many hunters utilizing the rifling 12 gage slugs for hunting. This year I personally Black Powder hunt all three gun seasons. The reason why I utilized the Black Powder is because I knew I would not be shooting over 100 yards where I hunt 90% of the time. By the way I am still deadly past 200 yards with Black Powder.

    But in my care, I am in a dense cedar location where I am lucky to get over 60 yards. I had used in the past 25.06 and 308 but would get deflections from unseen twigs, vines etc hence missing or not swiftly harvesting. With the Black Powder, I had no issues in harvesting everything I aimed at.

    Now my Black Powder is a 50 cal. which is not too far off from the same capabilities of a 12 gage slug. So ask yourself this. What is the reason why your wanting to decide between a 30.06 or 12 Ga? If you are only using it with in the 50 yard range, go for the 12 Ga. If you think you may in the future go further shots, utilize the 30.06.

    I may suggest go for both if you have the means. ILL has laws where you can not utilize "high power" rifles like the 30.06 so make sure you are not in an area with such laws for hunting.

    Good Shooting

    Jason Lumetta
    ExtremeGunCare
     
  10. JDMorris

    JDMorris Member

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    a .30-06 will have a tendency to "jello" more than exit wound, as the slug would just blow out alot of meat. I took down a small pine tree with a single shot from a 400 grain slug once.
     
  11. stonecoldy

    stonecoldy Member

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    I can't speak for a .30-06 but will say after shooting more than a few whitetails at over 100 lbs. to over 200 lbs., at 50 yards behind the shoulder you'll find a dead deer shortly. I've recovered a couple Remington 1 oz. Sluggers but had exits on higher than center shots. All were runners but not far. They never made it very far. Never had a DRT but all easy to track.
     
  12. pat86323

    pat86323 Member

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    I for one see no reason that wanting a bigger exit is a sick thought. Bigger holes mean better blood trails generally speaking. The real question is "why wouldnt you want a bigger exit?"
     
  13. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator

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    Well it's pretty subjective but a 1 oz foster type slug is a pretty anemic round. It will poke a big hole a deer and may or may not exit depending on where you hit it. It is very similar to a large bore muzzle loader wound. The 06 load you speak of will do more explosive shock type damage and depending on where you hit the deer may leave a gaping exit wound, a slightly larger than caliber exit wound or not exit at all.

    There are no definitive answers with a bullet or a slug wound and how it will perform. Either will kill a deer grave yard dead at 50 yards.

    So the short answer to your question is that it depends on lots of stuff.
     
  14. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    No such thing as "always", but I've seen the occasional '06 exit wound where you could stick a fist in it and not get blood on your hand.

    Then again, I once had an '06 blow up inside a mule deer's neck; no exit wound. He didn't go anywhere, of course, so it didn't really matter...
     
  15. huntinhound8

    huntinhound8 Member

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    I have shot one deer with 00 buck and it left no blood trail...ended up walking around it for about 20 minutes before I found it. I'd like to just drop 'em and be done with it. ;)
     
  16. pat86323

    pat86323 Member

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    that is a perfect example of why exit holes are nice, i know it doesnt happen all the time no matter what caliber you use but exits allow for more blood flow. In the rocky terrain that i often hunt i like to see some blood. I cant follow tracks in the dirt.
     
  17. Kachok

    Kachok Member

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    The 30-06 is capable of making more soft tissue damage and creating more "shock" but the 12ga slug is no slouch either at 50 yards. Both will quickly and cleanly kill any deer that ever walked, difference is the 06 is also suitable for much larger game as well. I have seen ballistics gel tests for both, the 06 was way more impressive.
     
  18. 336A

    336A Member

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    From reading your posts it sounds like that you are hunting in dense terrain where your shots are going to be close in. If that is the case I'd pick the shotgun over the rifle if that is all you have to choose from.
     
  19. Kachok

    Kachok Member

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    Shotguns do have an additional advantage in dense brush that has nothing to do with terminal performance. Shotgun slugs move slower, have more mass, are larger caliber, are front heavy, and are flat or very slightly rounded at the front. These are all the factors in deflection when shooting through brush. That means if you shoot a slug and an 06 through the same brush/leaves/grass the slug will fly streighter then the high speed bullet.
     
  20. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator

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    Kachok,

    There have been several studies done on that subject and the old "brush buster" myth is just that a myth. The only factor that seems to allow for any reliability when shooting through brush is how close the animal is to the obstruction in question.

    If you shoot through brush expect to miss or wound. I've had a .470 NE firing a 500gr round nosed solid bullet go completely off course after having shot through some light brush at close range. Don't count on a 438 gr soft lead slug to do any better.
     
  21. kk0g

    kk0g Member

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    Very true. If the bullet hits a small piece of brush very close to the target, then chances are the deflection may not be enough to cause a miss in the very short distance it has left to travel to the target. If a one ounce slug hits even a blade of grass close to the muzzle, it will cause enough deflection to result in a miss.
     
  22. Kachok

    Kachok Member

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    My point exactly. Less deflection is less deflection no matter how you look at it. Nobody should ever attempt to shoot a deer 30' behind a brush pile no matter what you are shooting, but if he is standing in said brush your deflection with a slug is too small to worry about. Some high speed rifle rounds will yaw dramaticly at the 1st graze or a leaf or twig. Some light constructed bullets moving at VERY high speeds have even burst in mid air!
     
  23. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator

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    Kachok,

    A shotgun slug is actually LESS stable when encountering an obstacle even a small one than a spritzer type bullet. Even if your target is within a couple of feet of the obstacle you can get a complete miss or worse a wounding.

    Check this out...

    Author: Stan Warren
    Everyone knows that heavy, round-nosed bullets plow through brush better than the skinny, pointed types...right?

    Everyone knows (don't they) that heavy, round-nosed bullets plow through brush better than the skinny, pointed types. Alas, the facts do not bear witness to this gray-bearded shooting axiom.

    The fellow showed up on the Cumberland Plateau in hopes of getting a shot at one of the long-toothed porkers that call that rugged area home. His rifle was a spanking new .444 Marlin, and he figured that the 240-grain bullet with a fat chunk of blue-gray lead showing would be just the ticket. With its modest velocity of about 2,300 feet per second, his shooting logic dictated that it would shoulder through the laurel and rhododendron with no trouble.

    After a clean miss and another shot that struck well away from his point of aim, our hero figured that his sights were off. A check back at the hunting lodge showed no such problem. Instead, his brush buster just could not do what had been expected.

    Please do not get me wrong here. I like the .444 Marlin and cartridge of similar design, but at the same time have no illusions. The .30-30, .35 Remington, .45-70 and others may not be speed demons, but will certainly write a solid ending for various sorts of big game. It is a mistake, however, to think that they can perform the impossible.

    The purveyor of these words has no sacred cows in the shooting business. After all, who else would go to the trouble to prove that round-nosed bullets can be doggoned nearly as accurate as spitzers under hunting conditions?

    Let us take a look at the actual configuration of the lauded brush busters and see if physics and common sense cannot combine to point out a few problems. First of all, most of the flat-point and round-nosed bullets are fairly short compared to their length. That means in the language of the trade, that it will have a rather low ballistic coefficient while a longer, more trimly shaped bullet will have a higher ballistic coefficient. The bullet which is longer for its weight will overcome the resistance of air better, hence will have better ranging abilities. Now, we are not worried about long distance work, but rather crashing through limbs, brush and other obstacles between us and the target. Does the BC have any bearing here. Yep, sorry to say that it does.

    First of all, a short, fat bullet has a short axis on which to spin, thus maintaining its gyroscopic effect. Tip that chubby chunk of lead by hitting an obstruction and it can go all giddy on you. As strange as it may sound, a longer, slimmer bullet is actually harder to tip off its axis and be rendered a flyer or ricochet. If you do not believe me, check with the folks at NASA who design rockets.

    For instance, the BC of the bullets being used in the .444 mentioned earlier ran .165 while that of a 150-grain round nosed bullet in .30 caliber checks in at .266 in the Speer configuration. More racy designs intended for distance work can reach around .425, and you can take it from me that they work just fine in the woods. Now we come to the real truth: nothing can be counted on to "shoot through" obstructions.

    It may come as a surprise to some to learn that this concept is not something new and radical springing from the Space Age. In my library is an excellent book by Lawrence Koller called "Shots At Whitetails" in which he documents these same results. His choice for woods work on deer was the .250-3000 Savage despite the fact that the copyright date on the work is 1948. You can bet that Mr. Koller was hunting when there were a substantial number of .38-55, .44-40 and other big bore rifles were in use.

    The exposed lead necessary on bullets lacking high velocity becomes another hindrance here. Think about it: that soft lead that is carefully formed to make the bullet as accurate as possible is not going to like smacking into things, not even in a small way. Hit a limb, even a small one, with that soft metal portion of the pill you are trying to deliver and it is going to deform, tear or both. What we could call its ballistic integrity, the accuracy potential of the original shape, has been damaged or destroyed.

    I can recall as a youngster when the only baseball available for our games started to shed its leather cover. Not only was it hard to throw straight, but the wind resistance and lack of a concentric shape made getting any distance out of a hit or throw almost impossible. You sure could throw some tricky pitches, however. We could go on to compare a basketball and football, how one does a good job on straight line throws and the other does not. I think you get the picture.
     
  24. wombat13

    wombat13 Member

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    I disagree with this section. Have you ever looked at the toy gyroscopes or seen the high school physics demonstration of the gyroscopic effect? In both cases the gyroscope has an extremely short axis with as much mass as possible as far as practical from the axis. My high school physics teacher used a 10-speed bicycle wheel with weights along the rim.

    This suggests that a short, fat bullet will have greater stability due to the gyroscopic effect than a long thin bullet of the same weight because the mean distance of the mass from the rotational axis will be greater in the short fat bullet.

    I also note that the author of that article post no facts or analysis to back up his claim and instead merely appeals to the authority of unnamed NASA scientists.

    ETA: My college physics is very hazy, but I believe that the gyroscopic effect is related to angular momentum. Angular momentum is mass X radius X angular velocity (basically rpm). It gets a little more complicated since a bullet isn't just a weight at the end of a string; the mass is distributed throughout the bullet from the rotational axis to the exterior of the bullet.

    Again, if memory serves, angular momentum would have to be calculated as the integral of mass X radius X angular velocity as the radius goes from zero to the maximum radius of the bullet. Also, in that integral, the mass would have to be expressed as pi X 2 X radius X material density (2 x radius is the diameter; the diameter x pi is the circumference; circumference x material density gives the mass of the thin ring that far from the rotational axis. As one integrates the mass of the infinitely thin rings from radius zero to the max radius one gets the "mean" mass x radius.

    I may be a bit off, but the bottom line is that having the mass farther from the rotational axis increases angular momentum which is related to the gyroscopic effect. This means that short, fat bullets will have greater gyroscopic stability than long, thin bullets of the same weight.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2010
  25. H&Hhunter

    H&Hhunter Moderator

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    Wombat please do the following and report back on your findings.

    Go get a pile of sticks or dowel rods. Set them up with targets at varying distances behind them. Shoot your slugs and bullets through them at the targets. I've done so and my results were that the outcome is totally erratic. You can not tell what a bullet or slug will do after encountering an obstacle.

    Maybe you'll have a different outcome.

    My findings were that if the target was much beyond three feet away from the sticks I don't care what you are shooting you are pissing in the wind.

    I agree with you however you can't build a bullet in that shape.
     
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