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.30-06 M2 Ball on Deer?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by sithanas, Mar 28, 2006.

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  1. sithanas

    sithanas Member

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    I'm planning on purchasing a CMP Garand as well as a case of surplus M2 Ball ammunition. Is this ammo deer-usable, or should I invest in a couple boxes of commercial ammo for hunting?
     
  2. dakotasin

    dakotasin Member

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    fmj on deer is unethical at best, and probably illegal. buy some soft points for deer-whacking.
     
  3. 'Card

    'Card Member

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    It's not the latest, greatest, hottest, hardest, or fastest, but it'll do just fine for deer.
     
  4. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    I know that my state requires "expanding bullets" for any kind of single-projectile hunting.

    That means soft points, hollow points, NBT's, Accu-tips, LEVERlution, lead bullets, pretty much anything EXCEPT ball ammo, which is FMJ.

    Check your state's web site for laws (Natural Resources Dept., Fish and Game, Game and Fish, or whatever they call it in MI). I don't believe any US state's hunting laws allow the use of FMJ ammo, but even if the law is silent on bullet type, it's not considered an ethical way to take game. FMJ ammo tends to wound, not drop, an animal, including a human animal.

    http://www.michigan.gov/dnr

    Note also that the southern half of Michigan's lower peninsula doesn't allow rifles for deer hunting at all, apparently.

    Didn't they cover this stuff in Hunter Safety?
     
  5. 'Card

    'Card Member

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    None of the three states that I hunt in on a regular basis seem to have any prohibitions at all against FMJ ammo from a centerfire rifle (just checked) and to be honest it had never occurred to me that some states would bother regulating that sort of thing - but I guess it's always a good idea to say "...check your local laws first!" :)
     
  6. mustanger98

    mustanger98 Member

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    I see you're in Michigan, so check your Michigan hunting regs for legality. But for ethical issues, for the M1, I recommend handloading some Hornady 150gr spitzer type SP's which come as flat base or boat tail. My recommendation from my own shooting with my own M1 is to load that bullet over 42-50grs of IMR 4895 so it'll run anywhere from 2400fps on the low end up to 2900 or so max. But check the Hornady 5th Edition manual before you do that and realize that they have a section for .30-06 in general and a section for the M1 in particular and also realize that the numbers DO cross up between those two sections. (The only real reason I see the manual having a separate section for the M1 is match loads.) But as far as using FMJ on a deer, I wouldn't unless it was an all out case of having to.

    One mention was of using a cast lead bullet, which ain't supposed to work in a Garand, but it'd work in a '03 or 1917. Thing about that is there seems to be some grey area in the Georgia regs as to what an expanding bullet is. It seems that except during muzzleloader season lead bullets appear to be frowned on at best. I'll have to do some checking around on that.
     
  7. Stickjockey

    Stickjockey Member

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    Unethical in my opinion, and illegal in Oregon:

    From the 2006 Oregon Big Game regulations
     
  8. ID_shooting

    ID_shooting Member

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    Sure, they will work, if you dont mind making .30 holes in one side and right out the other and then chasing your deer for three counties, LOL

    MFJ is great for range work but terrible for hunting. A bullet doesnt have to be the latest, greatest, whiz-bang design, but a good hunting bullet is hard to beat for well, hunting.
     
  9. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    From what I can see on the MI web site, MI does not prohibit FMJ ammo for hunting deer. That doesn't mean you shouldn't spend the $15 on a box of hunting ammo, but it looks like it's not against MI law. "Anything larger than a .22 rimfire" is legal. Doesn't mean that it's ethical for hunting, effective for bringing down a deer, or a good idea.

    HOWEVER and this is a big however because it could be a serious offense...

    The Garand itself is illegal for hunting if unmodified.

    Michigan has a 5+1 round limit for semiautos. I'm not sure how to block a Garand magazine, but I'm sure people do it in states that limit magazine size for hunting.

    Also, in the area around East Lansing, ALL RIFLES are illegal for deer (from how I read the map anyway) though it's not too long of a drive to where they are legal.

    Again, check the laws!
     
  10. Ohen Cepel

    Ohen Cepel Member

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    It's a bad idea even if it is legal. A box of good 30-06 at Wal-Mart usually isn't over $20.
     
  11. Red Tornado

    Red Tornado Member

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    You can get 2 round or 5 round en bloc clips for your Garand. That should make it legal for hunting, just make sure you don't bring along a bunch of 8 rounders.
    RT
     
  12. mp510

    mp510 Member

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  13. clange

    clange Member

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    Exactly. It'll work, just not quickly.

    When I was young, like 14 or 15, and didnt know any better I used an SKS with FMJ ammo. The first deer I shot through the heart luckily, it only went 30 ft. My dad saw the holes and said to use JHP. Little did we know, JHP 7.62x39 acts exactly like FMJ. The next deer field dressed at 200 lbs even, and with a lung shot it took us 4 hours to find it and finally bring it down. Tiny hole on both sides. .30-06 has more behind it, but it doesnt matter, FMJ .30-06 would do EXACTLY the same thing as in my example.

    Use good ammo. FMJ or similar is unethical.
     
  14. mustanger98

    mustanger98 Member

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    Here's another issue- most .30-06 hunting ammo is not geared for the Garand's gas system. Most of it is loaded with powders that are slower burning than that loaded in military M2 ball or civilian equivelants. Use of such powders means port pressure will be too high and from what I understand, you're likely to get a bent op rod or, worst case, a bolt kicking out the heel of the receiver right in your face. My understanding is it has happened. That's why I recommended handloading the .30-06 with IMR 4895 under a 150gr SP. According to the Hornady 5th Edition manual I cited earlier as well as my own experience, IMR 4064 is also a good choice.

    Now, this matter of the Garand itself being legal or illegal for deer hunting... it seems to be grey area again. The magazine capacity can be reduced by the use of a 2rd or 5rd clip, but the rifle is still capable of loading 8rd clips. So it falls into whether the game warden sees it your way about those 2rd and 5rd clips as to whether you wind up in front of a judge. Then, the prosecutor is sure to argue you were using a rifle with capacity greater than legal. Question is, when your 2rd or 5rd clips are entered as evidence, will the judge and jury look at the clips or will they keep their focus on the rifle's issue capacity.

    My opinion... if you want to hunt with a military rifle, get a bolt action and you can use factory hunting ammo safely in most cases I've ever been around or heard of. Of course, my opinion there is based on Georgia not looking at bolts and levers, most of which carry 5-10rds, in the same light as semi-autos. But really, if you want .30caliber, I still go back to .30-30... much lighter rifle that still gets the job done quite well within 200yds if the shooter does his part.
     
  15. dakotasin

    dakotasin Member

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    that would depend on how the law reads. here, it would be illegal if the capacity was there, regardless how many were on your clip. if you blocked the magazine, though, you'd be fine.

    not sure why somebody would hunt w/ a garand, anyway... not the most wieldy of weapons, but i suppose it beats the tar out of watching tv...
     
  16. mp510

    mp510 Member

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    Then arguablt any rifle with a detachable magazine would be verbotten.

    Think about it, an M-1A accepts 20 (and even 10, 30 or 40) round magazines. With no magazine over 5 rounds in posession while hunting, would that mean your using an illegal implement?

    How about a Remington 700 modified to use M-14 mags?
     
  17. dakotasin

    dakotasin Member

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    if it has a 5-round mag, or a mag blocked to accept no more than 5, then it is legal, detachable or not. if the mag is unblocked and capable of carrying more than 5, then it is not legal.

    ar-15, ak, remington 700, 6-shot revolvers, all legal as long as the mag in the gun holds 5 or less for 5+1 capacity (and revolvers can carry 6).
     
  18. sithanas

    sithanas Member

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    Okay, so we've ruled out FMJ. (This would be why I ask before I go and do something stupid.)

    Anyone know any good commercial hunting loads that could be used in the Garand without damaging the gas system? I remember something about a variable gas release upgrade somewhere, and I don't really want to tune a handload if there's a commercial one available. Yet.
     
  19. GeoW

    GeoW Member

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    Quote 'Card

    It's not the latest, greatest, hottest, hardest, or fastest, but it'll do just fine for deer.
    __________________

    Pure horse sh*t........:cuss:

    Will not do fine for deer, rather inhumane.

    GeoW
     
  20. confed sailor

    confed sailor Member

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    shoot FMJ in SC and DNR will hang you out to dry,

    not to mention i wanna eat what i shot, not run it down halfway to GA:neener:
     
  21. Sam

    Sam Member

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    lots of mileage gotten on this thread.

    How many of you have ever tried M2 Ball on deer?

    Seems like most everywhere else in the world the the FMJ is preferred by the local pro's, here it's exactly opposite.

    M2 Ball works wonderfully on deer.
    M2 Ball on all but the smallest deer does exactly what the 5.56 does(and M80 ball from the 7.62) just takes a bit more meat to get it to swap ends and break.

    Now the 173 grain stuff is a diffrent animal all together. It WILL drill through a deer, so forget your GI match ammo.

    Of course you do have to obey the law in your jurisdiction, but do not discount something simply because it is illegal or you heard it from uncle Nick.
    Lots of hot air pumped over little knowledge.


    Sam
     
  22. confed sailor

    confed sailor Member

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    perhaps sam, i guess thats why sc banned FMJs, our deer arent big enough to get the tumble going.
     
  23. mp510

    mp510 Member

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    I always was under the impression that the purpose of having the FMJ bullets on safari rounds was to get the penetration, not expansion on rather large critters.

    What else is a fact, is that M2 ball probably did take down a whole heckuva lot aof 2 legged critters.

    No, I have never shot any animals with m2 ball, and I don't intend on trying.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2006
  24. dakotasin

    dakotasin Member

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    no, fmj on safari is usually used as a backup for penetration (like breaking pelvis), not expansion. first shot soft point thru chest, second shot fmj thru pelvis, or something like that. at any rate, fmj doesn't expand, so it isn't used for that.
     
  25. cracked butt

    cracked butt Member

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    Whole lot of good information on this thread with a bunch of BS mixed in.

    FMJ or solids are used for dangerous big game because they can penetrate thick bones and skulls reliably, not to mention that they are fired from big bore rifles.

    FMJs will not do anything reliably for deer except reliably zip right through causing minimal damage. Don't believe me, thry this experiment- get a bunch of pumpkins, watermelons, and canteloupe and shoot them with fmjs and softpints. I've shot some very large pumpkins up to over 100lbs with FMJs, and I've never seen evidence of bullets tumbing or expaning while passing through- they simply just pass straight through and do minimal damage.

    A 5 or 2 round en bloc will be just fine and legal, I've talked to people from Pennsylvania who have a similar law and have used M1s for hunting. Its impossible to load more than 1 shot in a m1 without an enbloc, let alone more than 5 rounds.

    For hunting ammo, just buy Remington corelokt (cheapest remington hunting ammo) ammo. Its not loaded hot, and if you only shoot a 1/2 box of the ammo through it a year to sight it in and hunt with, the odds are very very low that you'll do any damage to your oprod. Use M2 ball ammo for practice, use the corelokts for hunting, they are a very good hunting bullet.

    Consider taking up reloading if you own an M1. Your rifle will never shoot to its potential with M2 ball ammo, handloads tuned to the rifle will always shoot better.
     
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