30.06, the magnetic dilemma, is ALL M2 ball armor piercing?? NJ guy here.

[JDNJ1985]

Hi guys,

I'm about to buy my first M1 Garand. The Greek bandoleered ammo seems to be the way to go.

My range prohibits the use of armor piercing ammo. I'm not quite sure if they prohibit ammo that simply attracts a magnet, but possibly just armor piercing stuff.

Is the regular Greek M2 Ball ammo armor piercing? OR, does it need to be designated as such?

This is really upsetting me, because all other 30.06 ammo from Cheaper Than Dirt and the like runs $20 a box and up!

The range is Cherry Ridge by the way.

Thanks.

-Joe

 

[rcmodel]

By definition, M2 Ball is not armor piercing.

M2 ball is a 150-152 grain FMJ with a lead core.

I can't tell you if the Greek ammo is a pure copper jacket, or a copper clad steel jacket though.

But it is not armor-piercing if it's really M2 Ball.

rc

 

[Acera]

JDNJ1985 you made me interested also. So I went out and pulled apart a Greek 30-06 round from my stash. The bullet was attracted to a magnet, as would AP.

But when I tore the bullet apart to find the penetrator, I found nothing. The "brass" jacket was what was attracted to the magnet. Obviously the jacket is not entirely brass, or it would have no attraction to a magnet. I suspect that there is some ferrous material mixed in with the jacketing material, and that is causing the false assumption of AP.

Also think you problem might not be only with your range not allowing AP, it is probably your state also causing problems. Of course you probably face an impossible battle convincing your range that their magnet trick is ineffective. I am sure they will be steadfast in their own correctness and will not listen to your reasoning. If they will listen to your argument, you might want to use a bench grinder to remove one side of the bullet and show them no AP, and let their magnet pick up some of the jacket with no hint of steel being around. I would just go to another range if they are stubborn.


Good Luck,

 

[JDNJ1985]

Thanks for the replies fellas!

My Wolf Ammo is actually attracted to a magnet as well, but I'm almost 100% positive that it is NOT armor piercing.

My range is very pro firearm ownership. They are the NRA advocate of NJ and have many pro NRA supporters. They are affiliated with the NJSCD and ANJRPC members.

While they do want everyone to follow their rules, I'm sure they would understand something like this, I'm just a bit confused as to what their policies are. I emailed them about this.

They have periodic Garand matches, so I'm sure some of those shooters have similar questions as myself!

Yes, it's always a struggle here in NJ, but places like that give us some hope!

Thanks for the clarifications guys and for your help.

-Joe

 

[Kassnar]

AP ammo is tungsten, non-ferrous. Not magnetic at all. It will zip through 1/2 mild steel like it's not there though. Only steel jacketed copper guilded bullets will be attracted by the magnets.

 

[Acera]

Not entirely true Kassnar, the SS109 round has a steel penetrator. These appear not to, but like you said probably plated.

 

[shotgunjoel]

Do they really check every person's ammo? I couldn't imagine that, I think if they bugged people that much they wouldn't have very many people visiting their range.

 

[benEzra]

Not entirely true Kassnar, the SS109 round has a steel penetrator.

SS109 is ordinary non-AP ball, and actually penetrates less at close range than M193 due to its lower velocity.

True 5.56x45 AP is tungsten core, is denoted by a black tip, and its distribution is restricted by Federal law.

 

[Kassnar]

I thought the subject was 30.06 rounds. Not the puscilanimous mouse round

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Depends entirely upon what NEW JERSEY'S definition of armor-piercing is. My definition and yours doesn't matter. Anyone have the relevant statute?

 

[Acera]

True 5.56x45 AP is tungsten core, is denoted by a black tip, and its distribution is restricted by Federal law.

Are you sure about the restricted by Federal law part? It's not made for a handgun, so you may be thinking about local or state ordinances. Do a search on the internet, you can find plenty of rounds with the black tip, and penetrators made of various materials.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Federal law on AP ammo, highlights from bardwell:

WHAT FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS ARE PLACED ON AP AMMO?

If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
It is: ok to OWN AP ammo
ok to SELL AP ammo
ok to BUY AP ammo
ok to SHOOT AP ammo
NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))

Things that are called out SPECIFICALLY by ATF as being AP:

All KTW, ARCANE, and THV ammo.
Czech made 9mm Para. with steel core.
German made 9mm Para. with steel core.
MSC .25 ACP with brass bullet.
BLACK STEEL armor and metal piercing ammunition.
7.62mm NATO AP and SLAP.
PMC ULTRAMAG with brass bullet (but not copper).
OMNISHOCK .38 Special with steel core.
7.62x39 ammo with steel core bullets.

SPECIFICALLY exempt from the law by ATF:

ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds:

5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip.
.30-06 M2 AP ammo.

And then the actual definition:

(B) The term `armor piercing ammunition' means-

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and
which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other
substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass,
bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and
intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25
percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term `armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot
required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting
purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile
which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting
purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary
finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge
used in an oil and gas well perforating device."

So, for the OPs purposes, even the old '06 black tip ammo with "armor piercing" printed on the box is not technically "AP".

 

[Revolver Ocelot]

Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, the copper will react to the magnet.

 

[RSVP2RIP]

I believe only ferrous materials will be attracted to magnets. Copper does not qualify. Put a magnet on your copper water pipe in your house, I believe that you will find it is not magnetic. Copper water tubing(ASTM B88) is made of about 99.95% copper and +/- .0025% phospherous, balance trace elements. I'm a pipefitter by trade and my magnetic level never stuck to any copper piping, let alone any brass valves or fittings. Jacket material is made of copper and nickel in various amounts. Nickel is a feromagnetic material but I don't think it will attract a magnet in it's natural state. The greek ammo is a steel jacket with a copper plate on it. Kynoch used to make thier solids the same way, now Hornady has the same thing in their new DGM/DGS bullets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet

 

[lipadj46]

Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc, the copper will react to the magnet.

Seriously? Uh no, the element iron (Fe) is the only metal attracted to a magnet. Sorry could not let that one go or could RSVP2RIP I see. I assume you meant something else by this statement though?

 

[Revolver Ocelot]

Seriously? Uh no, the element iron (Fe) is the only metal attracted to a magnet. Sorry could not let that one go or could RSVP2RIP I see. I assume you meant something else by this statement though?

well firstly incase you are arguing the point of brass' composition here:
http://www.deepri.com/How_brass_is_made_background_history.htm

as for iron being the only metal hardly, cobalt and nickle are as well, and ofcourse any alloy containing them, bad information on the copper though (though evidently some brass shows magnetic properties, just really not anything of much mention though).

 

[lipadj46]

Yeah sorry I actually forgot about nickel and cobalt being magnet but you said the copper will react to a magnet and I'm feeling cranky today. I believe of all the metal elements only iron, nickel, gadolinium and cobalt are magnetic at room temperature.

 

[Revolver Ocelot]

I looked up copper by itself for magnetic properties and it listed none (which i find suprising though it could be wrong) if that isn't the reason for the somewhat magnetic property of brass then I'm not sure.

 

[lipadj46]

I think in theory all things are affected by a magnet field to one extent or another depending on their electron orbital configuration (it's been a while since physics classes). Man I totally forgot about paramagnetism, diamagnetism, ferromagnetism, superparamagnetism, getting old sucks

 

[rcmodel]

But the main point is, a magnet will not stick to a brass cartridge case or a copper-jacketed lead-core bullet.

If a magnet sticks, or is attracted at all, you have either a steel case, steel core, or steel bullet jacket.
It may have a copper wash coating, but there still has to be steel in there somewhere, or a magnet simply will not stick to it.

rc

 

[Garand-Garand]

Well Joe, Buying the Greek Ammo looks like the way to go because of the price, BUT!!!!!!! you now have a two month wait from CMP thanks to the Obama factor. some times you may find milspls ammo at gun shows but I think I would consider reloading. I buy once fired military casings and use 49 grns. of H 4895 powder with a 147 gr. FMJ and cci LR primers. It makes a nice grouping load and it's fun to do. I can reload for about 31 cents and can get it even cheaper if I really want to shop around or go on the auctions. I ordered 250 of Lake City on Jan 5 2009 and called CMP the following week and was told that they were still filling orders from mid November, That's when I decided to reload my Garand ammo. I would not send too many rounds of factory ammo through the Garand, because of the possibility of bending the op rod. Do some research and have fun with it, it's a hell of a gun baby! and the best rifle EVER made!!!!!

 

[JDNJ1985]

Wow, thanks for all the detailed replies fellas.

They are being a bit unclear in emails at the range about what I can and cannot shoot.

He basically told me: "Well why would it be magnetic if there is no steel??"

I obviously know now by this thread that the jacket of the bullet can have steel in it. Still, it doesn't make it armor piercing like you guys said! They made it seem that they prohibit armor piercing rounds because of ricochets.

Is a steel-jacketed bullet more prone to ricochets than non-steel jacketed ammo?

Thanks for much for all the detailed replies guys. I REALLY want to figure this out and explain to these guys my story.

-Joe

 

[JDNJ1985]

Can someone also explain to me (I'm a big newb!) what the actual jacket of the bullet is?

Is it simply the outer lay of the round? Or is it deeper inside?

Thanks.

-Joe

 

[jerkface11]

The jacket is mild steel just like wolf ammo. It has a lead core.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Is it simply the outer lay of the round? Or is it deeper inside?

Yes, it's the part you can see. Some bullets will have a very thin jacket around some other material, some will have a much thicker jacket. Some will expose the core material at the tip (soft point say).