.30-06 v .308: which has greater felt recoil

[Sulaco]

Good Lord nematocyst, are you ever gonna buy that stinkin rifle?!?

I learned this morning that Remington no longer installs the J-lock safety on the 2006 and up models. I am also in the market for a new bolt action rifle and have decided on the 30-06. My biggest reason is because this year, the old ought 6 is 100 years old. I want to celebrate that and 30-06 is as good as the next cartridge for Whitetail deer.

I grew up shooting so recoil isn't even something I think about. I don't think there is much difference in the recoil of a rifle chambered for .308 or for 30-06. Bullet weight is a little bit of a factor, but not much. If you can shoot a .308, you can shoot a 30-06. But honestly, I think you are putting more into this recoil thing than you should.

If you want a bench rifle you can shoot all day, don't buy a deer rifle. Buy something like a heavy barrelled varmint rifle chambered for .223 or .204Ruger or something along those lines. If you want a deer rifle you will only be shooting a little bit, buy a .308 or 30-06.

I have pretty much decided on a CZ 550 American in 30-06 but that was before I found out Remington dropped the J-lock safety so now I am researching them again.

 

[Lupinus]

Generaly speaking you will feel more from the 30-06 since it is the more powerful round.

Now that that direct to the point answer is taken care of the more long winded one comes. Many things will effect it, stock, stock shape, weight, etc. Also if it is to much you have an excuse to get a nice recoil pad.

 

[ArmedBear]

Recoil is a function of velocity and the total weight of the contents of the round, including powder and bullet, and the total weight of the rifle.

That's why black powder recoil energy can be higher than an equivalent load of nitrocellulose -- typical BP rifle loads are 70-150 grains. BP recoil is also more gradual, though, so it feels "different" one way or another.

So, a .30-06, which in standard loadings has a slightly higher velocity than .308 with the same bullet weight, would (probably) have higher recoil because the case (probably) contains more powder by weight, though a different kind of powder. It would also have slightly higher recoil due simply to a slightly higher muzzle velocity.

If you handload, it depends what you put in the thing, of course.

As far as felt recoil, that depends on stock geometry, recoil pad, action type, etc. A .308 is more likely found in a lighter, shorter bolt action rifle, whereas a .30-06 is generally a round for a full-sized gun, just because the .308 is a short-action round and the .30-06 is a long-action round. Small, light guns tend to have more felt recoil than large, heavy ones, just like little subcompact cars tend to bounce more harshly over bumps vs. big heavy land yachts, even if both have similar shocks and suspension.

 

[Infidel]

If I were you, I would choose the .308, simply because I perceive it as the best all-around cartridge available today (.30-'06 second). I just Really like the .308.

If I were you, I would go for the Tikka (although I've never fired one), because it is the little brother to the Sakos that I think are the finest production rifles available.

Being me, I'll just keep putting pennies away for the next Sako.

In any case, I will bet that, blindflded, most of us could not tell the difference between two more or less identical rifles firing the .30-'06 and the .308 with the same bullet weights.

 

[Preacherman]

As to the choice of rifles, I'll go with Infidel: a Tikka in .308 is an outstanding rifle, and would be right up there on my list of top choices. Others would be a CZ, with Savage heading the list of US manufacturers.

Bear in mind that a .308 gives you access to military surplus ammo, which makes practice a whole bunch cheaper (unless you reload). There are those who say that you shouldn't fire 7.62x51mm. NATO ammo in a civilian .308 chamber, due to differing pressures, etc. This is not a factor, IMHO - the civilian rifle is "proofed" at a minimum of 20% over SAAMI pressures, and the slightly hotter military rounds don't come even close to that sort of pressure (they're more like 5% over civilian pressures), so I shoot milsurp in my .308's without worrying. I've put thousands of rounds of milsurp downrange without a single problem.

A .30-'06 does give you the option to use heavier bullets, but down in the lower 48 States, I don't see this as being really necessary, given the high-performance bullets currently available from several manufacturers in 180gr. weights. In Alaska, for large bear and caribou, I can see a place for the 220gr. For the lower 48, the .308 will do everything you want it to do.

 

[obm]

here's recoil data from chuck hawks website:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

 

[Mantis]

bah, no gunsmith needed to replace a trigger on a Remington 700. It's VERY easy.

All you do is remove the bolt, stock, and floor plate (2 screws total) Then take a rubber mallet, and a punch and knock out the 2 pins retaining the trigger assembly. You will also need to remember how the bolt release mechenism goes back together, if you don't just post on here and somone should be able to easily help you. It's very easy. My first time it took me about an hour because I couldn't figure out how to reattach the bolt release spring and after consulting my girlfriend for help it was easy as pie. I installed 2 rem 700 triggers in 45 minutes from start to finish the other day. It's very very easy.

Then, just throw in the new trigger and your good to go!

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=172312

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=563419

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=345733

Obviously you buy the trigger based on the release weight, but I just posted these to give you an idea. I like my triggers in the 1.0-1.5 area. I'm up for hte night shift so ask away!

Waffen,

Why even bother to replace the trigger? Remington triggers can be excellent if they are adjusted properly. The triggers on my two Rem 700's (.308 VS and 30-06 SPS) are fantasic. The weight can be adjusted to just about whatever you want. They both have no overtravel and they break like a glass rod. Someone familiar with Rem triggers should do the adjustment though.

 

[Ranger J]

At least up to the heavier bullet weights 180g + because of the cartridge design and shape the .308 gets the same velocity as the 30-06 while burning less powder. It stands to reason that in identical guns the 30-06 will kick slight more. Probably the cartridges are so alike that this difference would be negotiable or not enough to worry about.
RJ

 

[AStone]

Good Lord nematocyst, are you ever gonna buy that stinkin rifle?!?

LOL! <Coffee spewed on keyboard>

Ah, thanks for a good 'morning' laugh, Sulaco. ("Morning" to me since I work nights.)

Yeah, I'll get it eventually, but I just yesterday spent my gun dollars for the month. (Picked up my new CZ 452 - paid for months ago, but been too busy to even pick it up - and put a nice Swift Premium 3X-9X 40mm {very nice for the price} on it, along with sling, hard case, etc. Now I've got to save my pennies for this centerfire. In the mean time, I'm asking all the questions to help with my decision that I can.)

Besides, just when I think I've got a choice picked out, I have another conversation (either in real time or on THR) that throws a serious wrench into my thinking.

Now I know why so many of you have so many guns: you can't make a decision about just one!

Thanks for continued opinions, advice & education, folks; I'm reading (even if very busy at work for the next couple of days)...

Nem

 

[Sulaco]

...Besides, just when I think I've got a choice picked out, I have another conversation (either in real time or on THR) that throws a serious wrench into my thinking.

I know what you mean. I am also in the market for a bolt action centerfire rifle right now. I have narrowed it down to either a CZ or a Remington. If I go CZ, I will get the 550 American. If I get the Remington, I am still up in the air on the model.

I really want to have faith in Remington's QC and buy American, but I just don't know. I have seen some rough stuff from them lately and my last 700 wouldn't group worth a darn. So I may end up with the CZ just based solely on performance and quality.

Which ones are you looking at now? Have you decided on a caliber or are you still debating the .308 and the 30-06? I am dead set on the ought 6.

 

[JJohnston015]

Not much left for me to add, except that between the Savage and Remington, based solely on the pictures and my own experience, I'd expect the Savage to have more recoil. Notice how the recoil pad of the Remington is flatter from heel to toe, but the Savage's looks more "dished out". The dishing makes for a sharper point at the toe, so if you shoot "toe in the pocket" (like I do), it'll be uncomfortable. I even prefer to round the toe of the pad some.

 

[AStone]

Which ones are you looking at now? Have you decided on a caliber or are you still debating the .308 and the 30-06? I am dead set on the ought 6.

I'm considering the following most closely, but can still be swayed: Remington 700 (especially fond of XCR); Savage 16FHSS; Tikka T3.

I like CZ a lot - just bought their 452 Style (.22LR, stainless with synthetic furniture) even though I've not had time to shoot it yet (just got it yesterday).
But, the CZ centerfire rifles don't come with stainless and synthetic stocks, so I'm not sure I'll go that route.

As for caliber, I'm obviously still waffling on that as well, as this thread demonstrates. Still in the running: .30-06, .308, & 7mm08. The latter obviously suffers from lack of bullet diversity (basically two, since I don't reload, at least not yet).

I started looking at it because it has a demonstrably lesser recoil in similar bullet weights, though most still argue that even that difference is negligible compared with .308 & .30-06.

I'm hearing that 7mm08 however, does have a flatter trajectory than .308 for similar bullets, but haven't investigated yet how .30-06 trajectories stack up to those two.

I'm betting now it'll be either .308 or .30-06.

Guess I'll just see which way the wind is blowing on the day I purchase.

Nem

 

[Preacherman]

Nem, bear in mind the practice ammo issue. If you're going to reload, this isn't a problem: but if you're going to shoot only factory ammo, the .308 has a decided advantage over the .30-'06, in that milsurp .308 is freely available, while .30-'06 milsurp is harder to find and its quality is often suspect.

Just a thought...

 

[rangerruck]

physics say the 30 06 if ALL other variable sof the rifles are equal.

 

[Richard.Howe]

who argues that .30-06 produces LESS felt recoil than does the .308

There are many threads about the interesting theories one hears at gun shops. If you really want to cut down on the recoil, then you need a 300 Win Mag -- the case is huge and the powder burns even slower than a 30-06. It feels just like shooting a .22.

.308 and .30-06 are ballistically similar. I have owned many rifles in both calibers and currently have only the .308s still "in stock." There's a great article in this month's Handloader magazine entitled something like "Why The 308 Is Great."

- .308 is a short action --> marginally smaller rifle.
- It also has a shorter span distance on the bolt that some say contributes to its higher accuracy in comparison to the 30-06.
- It is also the standard military round for standoff engagements and many great battle rifles will feed it.
- There is an abundance of surplus 308 ammo, cheap, and available for extended range sessions.
- The shorter 308 case burns less powder for the same velocity as the 30-06 in the sub-185gr bullet range. It's more consistent with modern efficiency theories ala "short and fat."

In addition, the 308 will still handle an enormous range of bullet weights. I have personally loaded as light at 110gr HPs up to 220gr MKs. From coyote to too-much-for-elk. Can you tell I love the 308?

30-06 is an awesome chambering. I just have my preferences. It is unlikely that any animal downrange of either would ever know the difference!

FWIW,
Rich

 

[Richard.Howe]

Re: your observation on availability of more factory loads in the 30-06:

308: Hornady TAP 110gr up to Rem 180gr SPs, and 200gr Black Hills MKs for targets; 78 loads listed at Midway

30-06: Federal 125gr. SP to Federal 220gr SP; 83 loads listed at Midway

I used 180 grain Accubonds for a recent elk hunt (albiet in a 300 winny custom mountain rifle). It would take a very special hunt for me to use anything heavier. Besides, today's premium bullets allow you to go a fuzz lighter and faster without sacrificing penetration due to bullet break-up.

FWIW!
Rich

 

[rust collector]

Rather than engage in endless theoretical conjecture, why not shoot them all and see which works best? Do you have some friends with similar guns? If you lived in central SD you could have a range day with my T3 lite stainless 308, and I think you would enjoy it even though it may move around a bit more than the other rifles because it's a bit lighter.

My first centerfires were Remingtons (700 in 6mm, 788s in 223 and 70-08) and they never disappointed me. I have also had good luck with a model 70 Win. I have no experience with Savages, but hear many good things about them and don't doubt one would do well for you.

Stock design is an art, and the most beautiful specimen in the world can take all the fun out of shooting (I loved everything about my Beretta onyx except shooting it ) You owe to yourself to get some trigger time with your short list and get the one that works best for you.

 

[Waffen]

Waffen,

Why even bother to replace the trigger? Remington triggers can be excellent if they are adjusted properly. The triggers on my two Rem 700's (.308 VS and 30-06 SPS) are fantasic. The weight can be adjusted to just about whatever you want. They both have no overtravel and they break like a glass rod. Someone familiar with Rem triggers should do the adjustment though.

I am so fimiliar with Remington triggers at this point I could do one in my sleep, I have adjusted them enough times to know I can't get it to the pull weight I want and be safe. A few of my remingtons had better factory triggers than others, but still a factory remington trigger is a factory remington trigger. I don't think i've ever seen anyone at a match with a factory trigger. If you have ever shot a Shilen or a Jewell trigger the difference is night and day.

 

[MCgunner]

Even Savage triggers will go to about 3 lbs, which is what I like. Anything less and I can't feel the sear very well through a pair of neoprene gloves on a cold day in the stand. 3# is perfect for hunting triggers IMHO. If you shoot bench rest or match, buy a trigger. If you're a hunter, an adjustable STOCK trigger will work. My Remingtons and my Savage all break at a nice, crisp 3#.

 

[rick_reno]

30-06.

 

[USSR]

Obviously, with equal rifle weight and equal loads (same bullet weight and same velocity), the .30-06 will recoil more due to the increased charge weight to bring it up to the same velocity as the .308. Still, the difference in recoil is negligible and other factors in determining which rifle to get would be more germane.

Don

 

[bowfin]

The difference between felt recoil between a .308 and .30-06 is more influenced by loads and bullet weights, and even moreso by stock design, and weight of the gun than any differences in the two calibers.

In the end it is all a moot point, I don't think anyone could be blindfolded and handed identical bolt guns in .30-06 and .308 with comparative loads and tell the difference.

Well, since I am a new guy, I might as well make one of my opinions well known at the outset: "If you are a grown man in good health and can't handle the recoil of a standard .30-06, then you are holding it wrong or need more practice."

 

[Schleprok62]

Besides, just when I think I've got a choice picked out, I have another conversation (either in real time or on THR) that throws a serious wrench into my thinking.

Now I know why so many of you have so many guns: you can't make a decision about just one!

Thanks for continued opinions, advice & education, folks; I'm reading (even if very busy at work for the next couple of days)...

Nem

Simple answer: Quit asking questions and buy your rifle... You know what you want, so go get it... and be happy... you'll get used to the recoil in no time...

 

[AStone]

questions, answers & decisions

Simple answer: Quit asking questions and buy your rifle... You know what you want, so go get it... and be happy... you'll get used to the recoil in no time...

Ah, but we all do things differently, don't we? That's what makes life so interesting.

Some don't ask, just do.

Some don't do, just ask.

Then, there's those of us that like to ask a lot first,
then, when we feel - you know, down deep inside - that it's time,
then, we do.

I'm an order of magnitude closer to a better decision now, based in experience (of others with these rifles, and my own with rifles other than these & shotguns), grounded in reasonable ballistics, some physics, & even some biology (deer, elk, caribou, moose are among those biological systems mentioned).

I've been reminded of the availability of mil-surps for .308 that enhance practice (by being inexpensive and readily available).

I've been convinced that the recoil issue is not the priority with these two rounds. It's, instead, a question about the gun: it's weight, length, action (long v. short), stock design, stock fit ... and a host of other issues.

It's that Rem 700XCR is available only in .30-06, where as Tikka & Savage are available in both. Hmmm.

So, by asking questions, I've gained a whole bunch more answers, and led to finding answers to other questions, and so am a LOT closer to a decision now than before I started asking questions! Whew!

So, it's a good thing, Schleprok, that I didn't listen to you a few days ago, and quit asking questions.

And, no I don't "know" exactly what I want, and no, I'm not quite finished asking questions yet, and . But when I am, rest assured, I'll let you know.

BTW, welcome to THR. You're gonna like it here.
_____

In the mean time, I'm busy at work, but taking breaks to read this forum. Thanks much for all the relevant new info posted since my last visit yesterday.

I'll continue to read, then over the weekend, put up a summary post to try to tie it all together. It's the least I can do to help others get to a decision more quickly than mine, even though the ride has been fantastic.

Yeeeeee haaaaaaa!



OK, back to work.

Nem

 

[Sulaco]

Nem you're a riot. Don't give in to our pressure. I know I wouldn't.

One other thing you may want to consider is quality control. I have had at least one Remington 700 recently that would not perform well and I have heard of a few others. I can't confirm any but my own though so take that as you will. I have also seen, in stores, some fairly rough finishing.

That being said, the Remington 700 fits me the best and that is followed closely by the CZ. If I go with the 700, I will be nervous until I am punching paper and pleased with the results. If I go CZ, I will expect nothing but great results from the get go.

Just my 2 cents.