.30-06 v .308: which has greater felt recoil

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Nematocyst-870 said:
OK, back to work.
Well, almost.

Couldn't help taking another look at the Savage 16HFSS & Tikka T3 lite stainless.

(Yes, I'm looking for stainless & synthetic. That much I know.)

I'm noticing that the only tech detail I don't fully understand (including whether it makes much difference) is 'rate of twist'.

Savage ROT is 1 in 10". Tikka is 11".

Anybody got a good quick explanation or a link to one?

(Yes, I'll search THR rifle forum later, but right now... back to work.

Yes, I really mean it this time. :D

:evil:

Nem
 
Get a .308 already!:neener:

What was the question again?:p

Oh, twist rate.

The faster the twist rate the longer the bullets you can stabilize. For the most part this means you can shoot heavier bullets out of a faster twist barrel. 1 in 10" is a faster twist than 1 in 11".

This becomes especially important if you are shooting 175 gr. Sierra MatchKings or some of the 190 gr. match stuff out there at long range.

Probably not what you need to worry about.;)
 
Nematocyst-870 said:
;)

So, it's a good thing, Schleprok, that I didn't listen to you a few days ago, and quit asking questions. :neener:

And, no I don't "know" exactly what I want, and no, I'm not quite finished asking questions yet, and . But when I am, rest assured, I'll let you know. ;)

BTW, welcome to THR. You're gonna like it here. :)


Nem


Just for the record... I was being goofy... :what:

I'm somewhat in the process of researching the same sort of thing, but recoil is less of a factor with me... 7mm-08 for me... :cool:

now, Remington 700 SPS, Weatherby Vanguard, or Savage... (I can't stand that damned accutrigger though) :banghead:


And thanks for the warm welcome... :)
 
There are a lot of factors at work when you feel recoil but I think that if you could have two identical rifles with one in '06 and one in .308, the '06 would smack you harder.
Just my opinion.

For the record, I have chosen .308. It is what my FAL shoots (OK, 7.62x51 is just a little different). I don't think that most anything you shoot at though will know the difference between any of the rounds you are considering. From my experience the recoil is pretty mild from a 7mm-08 (fired from a Browning BLR). It is not as mild as the 7.62x51 fired from a FAL though. Depending on the distances you are shooting, trajectory isn't likely to matter much.
 
I don't think anyone's mentioned it, but Remington makes a line of reduced, er I mean 'managed recoil' loads for several cartridges including the 30-06 that pretty much cut the recoil almost in half.

I have both .308s and 30-06s in fact several copies of the latter, if I had to pick one of the two cartridges, I'd go with the 30-06. Of course being a reloader greatly influences my decision.
 
I special ordered the Savage you are looking at last year without the Accu trigger. It is an '06 with scope. Once broken in, I got a nice 7/16 group w/ Hornady 180's, and some <1" groups with some powderpuff loads that were nothing special. The Savage is a lighter rifle, and the first thing I did was put a recoil pad on it. The only reason I opted for the '06 was because it would do a better job of stabilizing the heavier bullets. If I never planned on shooting over 180 g bullets, I would go for the .308 in a heartbeat. For what that is worth. I wanted the lighter weight, but wanted heavy bullets.
 
in all honesty, I can't really tell much difference between any of the cablibers in that range--270, 06, 3-08, etc. People will say things like "get a 25-06 for the tame recoil compared to an 06..."--me, can't tell much difference. Once you get above, say, a 243, any of them recoil enough that you have to expend more though not to flinch. Good hearing protection at the range helps alot with that, btw. And definitely some of the recoil pads on the newer guns like the limbsavers and decelerators do make a difference.

These two calibers are so close in performance etc, it would likely make no difference whatsoever to the average person, unless you are doing extreme range shooting, in which case the 06 has the advantage. (There is significant destabilization when a bullet goes subsonic, which will happen with the 08 before an 06 if handloaded to their fullest potential).

But I can almost guarantee a deer or something will never know the difference ;)
 
"bone break sound" may have been the crack of the bullet breaking the sound barrier. I've heard this a few times when shooting, especially when the bullet changes angles.

N870, there's no bad choice, here. .30-06 is more versatile, and easier to find ammo everywhere. It's easier to find cheap surplus in .308.

Buy one, have fun.

John
 
The only advantage to .30'06 is if you reload, and then only if you are willing to push things a bit.

.308 is very versatile, and more common than any of the other rifle cartridges you have discussed. This means if you only shoot factory ammunition you have more choices in this caliber. The cheap surplus ammo factor helps too.

As for the chile, so much chile, so little time.:evil: Had some incredible red the other day, the gal who cooked it needs to open a restaurant.:D Look for Chimayo red chile, the distinctive taste is very good.

And whatever rifle you get, shoot it a bunch!:D
 
NMshooter said:
As for the chile, so much chile, so little time.:evil: Had some incredible red the other day, the gal who cooked it needs to open a restaurant.:D Look for Chimayo red chile, the distinctive taste is very good.
Ah, Chimayo. Yes, I remember Chimayo. That's where that little chapel is, just north of Santa Fe if I remember correctly, on the way up to Taos.

Ummmm... chile. Makes my mouth water. Dang it, man, you gonna make me visit there.

But back to rifles. Yes, indeed, I think you folks have just about got me talked into that .308. I visited my gun shop yesterday and handled various rifles in both .308 and .-06. I'm realizing that I like that short action of the .308 a lot. From what all have said, it seems really nice. Enough versatility in rounds for what I'm looking for. Don't need anything above 180 gr. (I'm not after moose or caribou, just mulies and black tail.)

Now all I've gotta do is decide on a rifle. Tikka's looking very fine. Remington may be out now since they don't do much in .308. ({dited to add: Oops, I was wrong. The Remington model 7 is available in .308 with a short barrel and stainless barrel. Hmmm. Nice.} Savage is still in the running, but that Tikka is getting most of my looks right now...

Nem
 
Nematocyst-870 said:
Now all I've gotta do is decide on a rifle. Tikka's looking very fine.The Remington model 7 is available in .308 with a short barrel and stainless barrel. Hmmm. Nice.
Relevant to that decision, here's a question.

When in the gun shop a few days ago, an ostensibly knowledgeable salesperson offered the following hypothesis. (Paraphrasing)

Consider the angle between these lines: straight down the barrel & that line formed by the back of the butt plate.

That is, sit the rifle on the butt plate; if the barrel points STRAIGHT up (at a right angle), then it demonstrates a 90* angle.

Hypothesis that was offered: rifles with that angle closer to 90* will result in less felt recoil. {Edited to clarify: not "less recoil", but less "felt recoil".}

Observation: the Tikka T3 seems to be closer to that than the Remington Model 7.

Opinions?

Nem
 
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Nematocyst-870 said:
Evening all.

Evenin'. :)

From at least three threads on THR,
I've gained the impression that .308 Win
has less felt recoil than .30-06.

All things being equal (rifle, bullet, powder, etc.) you are shoving the same size projectile out of the barrel at roughly 200 fps faster with the '06 than with the .308. Last time I checked, Newton's Laws hadn't been repealed (although in today's political climate, one can never be SURE.)

Thus, I've been considering buying my first centerfire rifle
in 20 years as a .308, or even a 7mm08.

Have both. 7mm-08 is wood stocked, .308 is composite, can't notice any real difference in FELT recoil. Suspect the stocking is the reason. Neither is onerous. Both, BTW, like to make Bambi lay down very nicely.

Yet today, while picking up my CZ 452 from my gun shop,
I engaged in a discussion about that .308 v .30-06 recoil issue
with an (ostensibly) knowledgeable riflemman, also a reloader,
who argues that .30-06 produces LESS felt recoil than does the .308.

The reason, he claims, has something to do with the way the powder burns,
such that the .308 hits all at once, whereas the .30-06 is more prolonged,
stretching the felt recoil out over a longer time, allowing one's body
to adjust, to move with the recoil.

That just isn't logical to me. Both rifles are of the same caliber, both burn the same powders - one just in smaller dosages.

As one who is looking to purchase the ideal do-everything rifle, I like the fact that the .30-06 has a MUCH greater range of bullet weights than .308 (and a FAR, FAR, GREATER range than the 7mm08).

Whoa, there. The .30-06 IS a .308 diameter caliber just like (oddly enough) the .308 is. The '06 DOES handle heavier bullets much better than the .308, but the same selection is available for both. The only bullet listed in the manuals for the .30-06 that is not listed for the .308 is the 220 grain slug, and quite frankly, if I need a 220 grain .30-06, I want more rifle. Just a personal thing there. Normally, a 220 grain bullet would be used for large bears, and I ain't hunting the big boys with a .30-06. (Lived in Alaska too long to want to do that).

And while bullet selection for the 7mm is not quite as broad, there are still plenty of entirely adequate bullets available for deer/black bear sized game for it to be entirely viable.

But - just to be clear - I'm NOT a recoil junky, and am willing to sacrifice bullet weight range for less recoil.

Both my kids love the 7mm-08, and I'v grown fond of it too. The .308's inherent accuracy is hard to argue with, though. Either is a fine deer caliber.
One of the kids is a petite little blue eyed blonde daughter, the other a strapping six foot red-head son. Neither find either the .308 or the 7mm-08 cumbersome to fire, but both gravitate towards the 7mm for some reason.

Advice welcomed and encouraged, especially that based in experience.

In my experience, none of the calibers you are considering are all that punishing in the recoil department. The worst I've ever dealt with in any of the three happened to be a .30-06 that was BRUTAL. Remington 700 ADL. Hard plastic buttplate and a stock that just DID NOT fit me. Wife's rifle. She loved it. Go figure. One of the lightest FELT recoil of the trio was also a .30-06 that I fully expected to knock the bejeebers out of me. Got it for a song, as the guy I bought it from got more like patterns than groups from it. Was one of those skelotonized Ruger SS models. After removing the stock, using the dremel to round out the flat ladder supports to free float the barrel and working up a load for it, had it shooting MOA, sold it back to him for a hundred dollars more than I gave him. Think in retrospect, I shoulda kept it. All in all though, on average, a .30-06 IS gonna belt you a bit harder than a .308. all other things being equal.
 
Nematocyst-870 said:
Meplat,

Nice post, well-written. Good info. Thanks.

Still leaning towards .308.

Nem

Don't think you can go wrong. Nice to have a decision one can't screw up on. I NEVER seem to run into those. lol

FWIW, both the 7mm-08 and .308 are Savages. Best damn rifle for the $$$ I've found yet. Triggers aren't the best in the world, but with sub-MOA groups, who can argue?
 
OK Nem, we're all rooting for you to poop or get off the pot! :D We love you and don't want you to have to go for one more day without your hyper-researched rifle.

I believe you ought to file for a second Ph.D. on the basis of how much you've thought and agonized over this dang deer getter.

Now you understand why all us gunnies have more than one rifle, because there is no single right answer!

Do I need a Browning 300 win mag, a model 94 30-30, a Sako 6.5x55, a Steyr 308, and a Winchester 308 long-range rifle? ...scratching head...

No! Any one of them would work as a single do-all gun. But none of them would be perfect. That's the beauty of multiple gun ownership.

So -- if you're like me and love to get the highest score in the class -- understand that it is impossible to make a "100" on this test. At best you will get a "90." You just need to pick what 10% you're willing to miss...for a 308, it's bears and moose. You gonna be hunting that anytime soon? :neener:

90/10 is way higher than average.

Rich
 
When in the gun shop a few days ago, an ostensibly knowledgeable salesperson offered the following hypothesis. (Paraphrasing)

Consider the angle between these lines: straight down the barrel & that line formed by the back of the butt plate.

That is, sit the rifle on the butt plate; if the barrel points STRAIGHT up (at a right angle), then it demonstrates a 90* angle.

Hypothesis that was offered: rifles with that angle closer to 90* will recoil less.

Great hypothesis, and sounds wonderful: but the human body doesn't have many 90° angles to it! So much depends on your own body: length of arm, weight distribution (and how much weight there is! :D ), shooting stance, etc. What is perfect, right from the factory, for one shooter may be ghastly for another shooter.

My own test for stock dimensions, angle, etc. is this: when I bring the rifle up, I put it to my face (cheek), not my shoulder. I get it to a point where the sights line up for me (whether iron or glass doesn't matter - getting a clear sight picture is what's important). When I have that, I slide the rifle back into my shoulder, making sure that I keep my sight picture. If more than half of the stock is sticking out above my shoulder, and thus won't help absorb recoil, this is not great. If half or more of the stock is against my shoulder, this is good. (Note that when firing, I may still find problems with cheek fit, etc: but as a quick-and-dirty test at a gunshop, this has worked for me.)

YMMV...
 
Richard.Howe said:
OK Nem, we're all rooting for you to poop or get off the pot! :D We love you and don't want you to have to go for one more day without your hyper-researched rifle.
LOL. :D

Ah, you folks are great. Thanks for your kind patience & advice in all this. Hope this thread will also be useful to others trying to make a decision.

Yeah, Rich, I'm gettin' close to a decision. (In fact, I've pretty much already made one, but I'm going to sit with it fer a spell to make sure it still feels right. :rolleyes: And I'm not going to tell you yet. You gotta wait. :neener:

Besides, like I've said elsewhere, this rifle purchase is still a ways off. I'm still a bit shy of the $ I need to get one. But that's OK, cause it's nice to be ahead of the game. That's the reason I started this conversation early: when the $ get here, I'll know which one to get. ;)
____

P'man, great suggestion about testing stock fit. Makes soooo much sense. I'll try it out early this week at the gun shop. Muchas gracias.

Nem
 
Nematocyst-870 said:
LOL. :D
Besides, like I've said elsewhere, this rifle purchase is still a ways off. I'm still a bit shy of the $ I need to get one. But that's OK, cause it's nice to be ahead of the game. That's the reason I started this conversation early: when the $ get here, I'll know which one to get. ;)

Nem

Don't wait too long. Hunting season here in Oregon will be here before you know it.

Spring Bear starts April 15th, and there are controlled Elk hunts as early as August.

I.G.B.
 
itgoesboom said:
Don't wait too long. Hunting season here in Oregon will be here before you know it.
Oh, don't worry, IGB. I'm planning on having that puppy before summer. I won't do bear - more interested in deer in autumn. But plan to have it for lots of range practice during summer before bambi & her beau start trampling fall foliage.

;)

Nem
 
Nematocyst-870 said:
Oh, don't worry, IGB. I'm planning on having that puppy before summer. I won't do bear - more interested in deer in autumn. But plan to have it for lots of range practice during summer before bambi & her beau start trampling fall foliage.

;)

Nem

Um, I thought that Bambi, and I mean the deer here, not the stripper, was a buck?

Saw a great bumper sticker the other day. "Bambi makes cute sandwiches" :evil:

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I.G.B.
 

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itgoesboom said:
Um, I thought that Bambi, and I mean the deer here, not the stripper, was a buck?
LOL. Shows you what I know.

Never saw the animated movie. Just always assumed that with a name like "Bambi", it must have been a doe.

Nem
 
Nematocyst-870 said:
LOL. Shows you what I know.

Never saw the animated movie. Just always assumed that with a name like "Bambi", it must have been a doe.

Nem


Down thisaway, it don't really matter. No more "ground checking". Dang things have gotten so thick (season of some sort or other starts in early Oc tober and runs through the last day of January) that does are legal as bucks on private property. Ony thing not fair game is bucks under four points. Ever tried to eyeball a slick for a NUTSACK?

This old phart never dreamed he'd live to see THAT day.

It's getting to the point that a man can't grow a garden or ride his motorcycle for them. Live in a neighborhood of five acre yards, so houses are too close to shoot them, even with a shotgun and buckshot. Danged dogs are even too used to 'em to harrass them. I'm left with the last resort, so if you ever drive by my house and see someone on the roof with a bow and an evil grimace, you'll know they stole ONE PEAR TOO MANY.
 
Meplat said:
It's getting to the point that a man can't grow a garden or ride his motorcycle for them. Live in a neighborhood of five acre yards, so houses are too close to shoot them, even with a shotgun and buckshot. Danged dogs are even too used to 'em to harrass them. I'm left with the last resort, so if you ever drive by my house and see someone on the roof with a bow and an evil grimace, you'll know they stole ONE PEAR TOO MANY.

Where in Dixie are you, Meplat? It sounds like you're describing my neighborhood, and we don't have 5 acre yards (mine is only 1/3 acre). We're surrounded by farmland and woods, though, so the deer are thicker than the skeeters.

Besides deer, we've got a LOT of coyotes. Saturday afternoon, my son and I spotted one standing on a little rise just about 20 feet from a busy road, casually watching the traffic pass by. He was calm as could be -- acting like he owned the place (which he probably does, now that I think about it). He was a big'un, too, for a coyote. I figure he had to be at least 40 pounds, and may well have been over 50.
 
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