30.06 versus 8mm

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50 Freak

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Sorry if this question has been asked.

What are the ballistics of a STANDARD military 30.06 versus a STANDARD 8mm (196 grain).

Trying to figure out among the surplus out there, is the 30.06 or the 8mm a hotter round (hotter as in which is a better round, velocity + bullet grain).

Thanks in advance guys.
 
The 30-06 is a little more powerful and a little longer reach. Not exactly sure on the FPS, never heard a chrono'd 30-06. The standard 30-06 has a length of 63 mm vs. the 8mm rounds I have experience with are, technically, 7.92x57. I've fired a 30-06 and 8mm, and can say that it is very similar in terms of recoil. The 8mm rounds chrono'd, from what I've heard, lay somewhere within 2,600 FPS - 2,900 FPS range. According to what I've HEARD, the 30-06 should be upper 2,000's low 3,000's
 
This 152 grain (9.8 g) flat base bullet without the stain was standardized in 1940 as the 'Ball, M2' cartridge. According to US Army Technical Manual 43-0001-27, M2 Ball specifications call for 2740 feet per second (835 m/s) velocity, measured 78 feet (24 m) from the muzzle.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-06_Springfield

In another wikipedia article the 1905 8x57 js load fired a 154gr bullet at 2,880 ft/s, the article doesn't have the stats on the 1942 197gr load. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7%2C92_x_57_mm

Even if it's not the most reliable source, wikipedia can be a good place to start. Based on this I'd say that the 8mm is a little more powerful, but the difference negligable. Take it for what it's worth, after all I'm no expert.
 
In WWII trim the lighter 7.92 load (154grn @ 2880fps) was a good deal more powerfull then the US army's standard M2 ball loading (152grn 2740 fps).
 
Define "Standard".

8mm:
1. Standard Yugoslavian was 196gr @ ~2450ft/s. That's 2.61 kfpe.
2. Standard Turk (at least, 1951 headstamp) was 155gr @ 2960ft/s. 3.01 kfpe.
3. Standard German was 154gr @ 2880ft/s (I think). 2.83 kfpe.

.30-06:
M1 Ball was 172gr @ 2700ft/s. 2.78 kfpe. (Boat-tailed.)
M2 Ball was 152gr @ 2740ft/s. 2.53 kfpe. (Flat-based bullets.)

So I guess military 8mm was "more powerful", in that projectile KE at muzzle was higher. I don't know what bullet profiles are used on the various bullets; if everything's flat-based (I want to say the Yugo stuff is boat-tailed), then .30-06 probably carried better than the German 8mm, simply because of higher SD/BC.

I'm pretty sure Prvi's current 8mm offerings (the 196gr SPs and FMJs—dunno where to get the FMJ in the US, though) are meant to match the old military loads.
 
196 gr 8mm ammo

I think that stuff was originally intended as machinegun ammo. My Mauser likes it better than the 154gr ball (ouch, metal buttplate still there :eek: ), but if you're going to compare, the "standard" ammo for the Garand was, I believe, M2 ball (150 grains) and the Mauser standard stuff for infantry rifles was 154 grains. American ammo companies don't push the Mauser ammo as hard as they tend to do for 30-06. If you're handloading, there's not much difference, unless you're doing something like trying to craft long range match ammo. If you're doing something a little more ordinary like shooting whitetail deer, they're very, very close.
 
For long range purposes, .30-06 has the advantage—little bit more case capacity, and much better bullet selection. BCs run higher in .308 than in .323.

Still, it's hard to beat a 196gr SPBT zipping along at 2400+ ft/s.

Looking around Midway, I spotted a .308 bullet (210gr, VLD, HPBT) with a BC of 0.64. Highest one I found in .323 was 0.524 (220gr, JSP).
 
Yea, I'll vouch for the Turk ammo. Way hotter than any 30-06 surplus that I have fired. I've heard of some lot's of Turk hitting 3200fps on the chrono.:eek: It's a downright magnum round. Cheap to boot.
 
^^^

Yeah, but that's also out of the LOOONG-barreled Turks (29"!). And you start running into overpressure issues like PRIMERS EXTRUDING INTO FIRING PIN HOLES.
 
7.62, 7.5 comparisons

Ah, we're beginning to thread the needle here. That's okay if you're a handloader, but at this point, if you just wanna shoot milsurp rifles and milsurp ammo, they're close enough that maybe you should be looking at the guns instead. The Moisin is pretty clunky as an infantry rifle (or carbine!) :barf: but the Swiss K31 is just... smooooooooooth if you're looking for an out-of-the-box shooter with iron sights. The 7.62 x 54R (ick, remember, that means Rimmed!:barf: ) has a very slight ballistic advantage over 30-06, but bullet selection for true .308 pretty much outweighs that if you're a handloader. The 7.5 Swiss is very, very close to the .30-06 in performance, no edge there that I can see, and does shoot .308. That takes you to the question of whether you're loading your favorite rifle (Moisin/Mauser/Springfield/Swiss). For my money, that bunch of cartridges is so close that we're talking rifles here, not calibers. Each has its strong points but they're really very much in the same class.:scrutiny:

Do you wish to shoot a bunch of milsurp 7.62 x 54R? Cheap, go for it. 7.5 Swiss? Not cheap, but accurate, go for it. 8mm? Cheap, pretty accurate (depends on your rifle) go for it. 30-06? Milsurp ammo sorta cheap, accurate for the most part, go for it.

The point is - if I had a favorite rifle in any of those calibers - and I do, except the Russian - I wouldn't see ballistic advantages so much as I'd see what I like in the rifle. I shoot my 03A3 (Springfield .30-06) more than the others, but man, the Swiss K31 and M98 Mausers both do their jobs VERY well and are not at all outclassed by the 30-06. I do handload, and I suppose if I had to choose hunting cartridges, I'd stick with 30-06 for longer ranges, because my Springfield is scope mounted but the Swiss K31 isn't, and the 8mm bullets for long range simply aren't that many choices, but if I were hunting bear, the 8mm might have a slight edge with the heavier weights.

But... we're splitting hairs here.
 
Err...

7.5x55
GP11: 174gr VLD (basically) FMJBT @ 2560ft/s. 2.53 kfpe

7.62x54R (I used 7.62x54R.net as my source)
Prvi Partisan FMJ: 150gr FMJBT @ 2800 ft/s. 2.61 kfpe
Hungarian Yellow Tip: 182gr FMJBT @ 2660 ft/s. 2.86 kfpe
Hungarian Light Ball ('80s): 149gr FMJBT @ 2820 ft/s. 2.63 kfpe
Russian 7N1: 152gr FMJBT @ 2725 ft/s. 2.50 kfpe

There are a lot of 54R variants.
 
30-06 vs. 8x57 vs 762x54R (these are the ones I'm familiar with).

If you are talking strickly milsurp ammo its hard to make any distictions:
Mainly beacuse there are so many different loading for the 8mm and 7.62 Russian. On a practical note, I would consider them all to be pretty much equivalent. A variation in 100-200 fps is negligible in reale work (hunting) terms. And depending on bullet weights the trajectories are very similar with the PBR varying only an inch or 2 at 200-300 yards.

If you start to consdier handloads, you can "build" different platforms with lighter bullet weights (=more velocity) or heavy...But muzzle energy will still be very close. The selections of bullet weights in 8mm has expanded considerably recently, so you can get bullet weights similar to almost any .30 caliber, as well as some really heavy bullets.

Now I'm currently building a "best of all worlds" gun for this class..An 8mm-06 Ackley Improved. Accordng to some load data I've got this is stepping on the heels of .338 Win Mag (in terms of energy) and exceeds .300 Win Mag. In both cases using abit less powder to do so.
 
I agree with the thought that these calibers are close enough that the practical difference is determined by the platform and the choices of the handloader. I have a m38 Mosin Nagant and a K31 7.5x 55 and between the two I see no reason for a 30-06 or 308 unless I ran across a rifle that I just particularly liked. I view the MN as primarily a 150 yard gun due to its accuracy limits but I think it can handle almot any power level that I'm actually willing to shoot. The K31 is a work of art and seriously accurate. For me it is easily a 200 yard hunter at any power level up to black bear.

I'm also dickering for a 6.5x55 Swede that would be my 300 yard hunter, If I could actually shoot that accurately. Although its bullet characteristics makes it quite a different gun from the others mentioned, I think it also has 30-06 power capabilities. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

RE: the 8mm-06 Ackley: why not just a 35 Whelen?

Bill
 
Guys, thanks for all the data.

I'm sticking with 8mm. Cause I just bought 2,700 rounds for $145 shipped. Am adding that to my already 1,500 rounds at home.

Just picked up another FN-49 to help me shoot all this 8mm.

Woo Hoo, think I'm going to buy another 2,700 the end of this week. Gotta get it before it's all gone.
 
Here's what I got from a standard length K98k a few years ago. I was impressed by the steel plate recoil as well as the numbers

From GUNS Magazine article:
The Yugoslav ball managed 2,471 fps, with an extreme spread of 135 fps and standard deviation of 38 fps. Groups from the newly bedded K98k ranged from 2.7 to 4 inches, with the most often encountered five-round spread measuring just under 3 inches. The S&B sporting round employed a 197-grain soft-point over 42 grains of stick powder at 2,556 fps, 141 extreme spread and an SD of 41. Groups measured 4, 2.7 and 1.3 inches. The Turkish ball (154 Grain) was the most consistent of the lot. Average velocity was 2,977 fps with an extreme spread of only 60 fps and SD of 18 fps.

I had ordered the stripper clipped Turk ball from Dillon for cheap. It looked like it had been made the day before yesterday and outperformed the other two loads. Recent articles I've read about 30-06 factory loads seem to indicate that the factories are not striving for optimum velocity.
 
6.5 Swede

No, you're right, in some respects anyway.

The 6.5 just isn't a 30-06, but it's no toy. It's the weapon of choice in Sweden for hunting moose. :what: Yeah, no kidding. Mind you, they're using heavy bullets for moose, but in a country where it wouldn't be all that hard to get something else European like an 8mm Mauser... that's by far the favorite. So, some folks will argue with you vehemently over whether it's in the same class, but bottom line is, there's a lot of folks who take fairly heavy game with it and are happy with performance. The tech types will give you data, but the hunters will show you the stuff they have in their freezer or the antlers on the wall. ;)

Nice shooter, too - I have an M96, and that sucker does its job. :evil:
 
Most commerical 8mm is wimpy compared to the original mil-spec stuff. Like 150 gr bullet at 2500 fps (pretty sure that was the Remington load)
 
The standard ball .30'06 was less powerful than standard ball 8x57JS, as was pointed out. But ball .30'06 doesn't come close to utilizing the full potential of the .30'06. It's closer to the level of 7.62 NATO. Indeed IIRC 7.62 NATO was designed to duplicate .30'06 ball.

As a practical matter .30'06, 8x57JS, 7.62x54R are all in the same class. .308, 7.5 Swiss, .303 British, 7x57, etc. are just a notch below these but the difference gets a lot more attention than it should. I don't think anyone would notice on the business end. A bigger consideration with surplus rifles is twist rate and barrel length.
 
Before the Loading manuals starting paying attention to SAAMI- (or before it came about), the upper loads for 06 were in the 55,000 psi range. We used 61 grains of 4350 and it allegedly drove a 150 grain bulllet at over 3,000. I later tried one of the early listed 180 grain loads in my 26" ruger number 1 and averaged speer grand slams at 2800. If those Hornady short mag loads do what they say, the 06 is now well into 300 mag territory. Could probably do the same with an 8mm if anybody was interested.
 
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