Quantcast

30-30, 165g coated lead, IMR-4227, which primer?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by SARuger, May 20, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. SARuger

    SARuger Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Virginia
    My Winchester 94AE shoots this load very well, when the primer ignites!

    I'm using 17.0g of IMR 4227. The Lee Cast Bullet data says to use the standard large rifle primer. I'm using CCI 200

    I'm wondering if the Winchester primer may be a better choice, or even a magnum primer.

    Although intuition tells me its a gun issue, this rifle has never had a fail to fire with any other ammo before these loads or since I have been told that the CCI primers just do not work with some rifles. And go figure, I have 3,000 of them.
     
  2. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    26,071
    Location:
    Northeast PA, USA
    I have never heard "CCI primers just don't work with some rifles." I use both Winchester and CCI rifle primers interchangeably with good success. (price and availability)

    I'm also guessing it's a rifle problem or that batch of primers has somehow become compromised. Like I said, I have never heard that CCI primers don't work in some rifles.
     
  3. SARuger

    SARuger Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Virginia
    I read somewhere about the CCI primers being hard for some firing pins to ignite.

    The rifle is as new as 1981 Winchester 94ae can be. It has less than 150 documented rounds through it. I put all but six of those through it. To this point I have only shot box ammo on it with no issues.
     
  4. CLP

    CLP member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,397
    maybe the brass is contaminated with some oil or something and it's crept into the primers?

    did you pull those that failed to go bang?

    those primers shouldn't have any problems being fired from your 94

    most significant primer issue i'm familiar with it the opposite of your problem- sensitive primers like federal in rifles with free floating firing pins- at least theoretically (i've never seen it happen or have it happen, but i don't use federal primers in ARs or Garands)
     
  5. SARuger

    SARuger Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Virginia
    They all eventually fired except one. I haven't pulled it yet. I tried it 5 times and nothing.

    I tried shaking the shell and dropping them in and they fired fine except that one.

    I do not think contamination is the problem, I loaded them an hour before I shot them.

    I'm at a loss
     
  6. RPRNY

    RPRNY Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,336
    Location:
    Front Range, CO
    I use 18 grs 4227 and 170 grs cast and have never had any ignition issues with Win LR primers (Marlin 336 and Glenfield).
     
  7. gotboostvr

    gotboostvr Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    3,831
    How sure are you that all your primers are fully seated?

    True, CCI's are harder than Federal's but the slight amount of "give" from a not-quite-all-the-way seated primer can cause similar issues.

    I use allot of CCI primers, and outside of a backed out main spring screw on a S&W 627, never had an issue if they were fully seated.
     
  8. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    26,071
    Location:
    Northeast PA, USA
    Since that is new information that changes things. Sometimes if a primer isn't completely seated the first microsecond strike will finish seating the primer and another strike will fire it. Be sure your primers are seated completely before you go ant further.
     
  9. stubbicatt

    stubbicatt Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2007
    Messages:
    3,413
    Location:
    Colorado
    Try another primer I guess.

    I shoot CCI exclusively through my old 1894, never a failure to fire. The fired primers do end up above flush, suggesting perhaps a headspace issue in the old blunderbuss. But they always go bang.

    So what sort of accuracy were you getting with your recipe? Those that did go bang?
     
  10. SARuger

    SARuger Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Virginia
    Stubbi, for plinking it wasn't bad. They all hit a 10" target at 100yrds. I couldn't get a decent group.

    Thats with ghost rings and I did not flare these when I loaded them so some of the coating shaved off seating the bullet.

    I now have a flaring die and the finished result should be much better.

    As for primer seating, I don't know what to do. When I ram the primer in (LEE Classic Turret) it will only seat so far.

    I'm new to re-loading but I guess I have 3,000 rounds of 8 different calibers and no issues until this. I have loaded at least 300 rounds of 30-30 for my 340a bolt gun and no issues there.

    I don't doubt that is the issue, I just don't know what to do to change it.
     
  11. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2006
    Messages:
    5,793
    I've used CCI primers for everything since the 70s. The only time I've used anything else is if I couldn’t get CCI. Thats rarely.
     
  12. kerreckt

    kerreckt Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2011
    Messages:
    972
    Location:
    SE Virginia
    Never had any problems with CCI primers or any primers, for that matter. I have been reloading since about 1970. I use whatever brand is on sale and make sure they are seated properly. Best wishes
     
  13. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    26,071
    Location:
    Northeast PA, USA
    SARuger, it sounds like your primers are being seated correctly. I have no other ideas, sorry.
     
  14. SARuger

    SARuger Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Virginia
    I tried some Winchester primers today with similar results. I shot 25 rounds, three failed to fire on the first time, two fired on the second try and one never did fire.

    I made sure the primers were seated properly

    It's not the rifle. I ran 25 factory rounds with no issues.

    I'm at a loss.
     
  15. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    26,071
    Location:
    Northeast PA, USA
    Maybe the powder is going bad. Is there any rust in it, does it smell bad?

    One other guess, are you sizing the brass correctly? Might there be a headspace problem with your reloads? If the shoulder is bumped too far forward your firing pin might not be hitting the primer with full force. Do you have a cartridge guage from Wilson, Lyman or the like to check the cases? It's just a guess since you said factory artworks fine and you tried two different primers. Only a few things left.
     
  16. SARuger

    SARuger Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Virginia
    I will check that Arch.

    Right now I'm using the Lee Collet Neck sizing die as this is "once fired" brass from this rifle. I also trimmed the brass but only one of the 50 cases needed any trimming.

    Another side issue I'm having that could be related is that when I flare the brass to seat the coated bullet and I crimp it, it bulges at the crimp and fails the plunk test. I had to run the loaded rounds back through the Collet Neck die (without the decap pin) to get the bulge out. The rounds then plunked just fine.

    I swear loading lead for this 30-30 lever gun is driving me nuts. I'm about ready to ditch the idea and go back to jacketed bullets.

    The rounds that went bang are kind of accurate, I can keep the group at 8" at 100 yards from a rest but the weird thing is I was consistently ringing the 250 yard 18" gong standing off hand. Much to my dismay.

    The IMR 4227 powder that I am using is brand new, less than 3 months old. I'm using a 17.5g charge.
     
  17. Salmoneye

    Salmoneye Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,905
    Location:
    The West Coast Of New England
    Just a guess:

    Headspace issue...You're pushing the shoulder back when you resize...

    The factory rounds are headspacing on the shoulder instead of the rim...

    Shoot some factory rounds, and then only neck size them...

    Then load your cast, and see what happens...
     
  18. kerreckt

    kerreckt Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2011
    Messages:
    972
    Location:
    SE Virginia
    I have used CCI primers since about 1975. I also, use them interchangeably with Winchester primers. I have NEVER had problems with either. If, you are having ignition problems, look at your process and your firearm. You are wasting your time blaming primers. I suppose it is possible to get a "bad batch" as it is possible to be struck by lightening. Best wishes
     
  19. Fatelvis

    Fatelvis Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,920
    Location:
    Lockport, IL
    I'm suspecting bad powder. Because he is sure the primer is fully seated, and the headspace shouldnt be too much of an issue due to the limiting factor of the rim. After all, factory rounds would most likely be HSing from the rim. The hammer spring and firing pin is obviously strong and positive, given factory ammo fires fine. Try a different powder, with everything else the same. Good luck
     
  20. JimKirk

    JimKirk Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2008
    Messages:
    3,349
    Location:
    Nicholls,GA South Georgia
    All indications point to improper primer seating ... try another method of priming ...

    Even if the powder was bad the primers should ignite on the first strike ... and striking a fired primer twice would not cause the round to fire on the second strike ...

    Only other thing would be headspacing off the rim thickness ... but if it shoots factory ... there is no reason it shouldn't shoot your reloads ...
     
  21. SARuger

    SARuger Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Virginia
    This is the case that would not fire, hit it three times. I have had two out of the last 50 that i have loaded, both were Hornady cases, one was a CCI primer and this one is a Winchester.

    I have had 6 rounds total that would not fire the first time through, 4 of those fired on the second try.

    All were Hornady cases. All of the Remington cases have fired. So maybe a case issue or sizing issue.

    Here is a look at the primer.

    IMG_20160605_115246189.jpg

    IMG_20160605_115238992.jpg
     
  22. SARuger

    SARuger Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Virginia
    Another note to add, I pulled the bullet(which still looked new, no coating lost) and dumped the powder, which also looked good. I need to get this cap out of the case but I'm afraid to stab it with the de-capper :uhoh:


    And from the pics, my diesel mechanic hands will never land me a job as a hand model LOL!
     
  23. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    26,071
    Location:
    Northeast PA, USA
    Don't worry about thanking the primer out if the case. if it didn't go off with 3 strikes if the tiring pin it won't go off when pushed out from the wrong side.
     
  24. JimKirk

    JimKirk Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2008
    Messages:
    3,349
    Location:
    Nicholls,GA South Georgia
    Your photo looks like the primer is fully seated NOW ... but this is after three strikes of the firing pin... What does it look like before ??

    After multiple strikes the primer compound can be so fractured that it will never fired ...
     
  25. SARuger

    SARuger Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Virginia
    I ordered a set of comparators for all of the rifle calibers I load. I hope this tool will help me find my sizing issues.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice