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30-30 / Unique / Large Pistol Primers

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Dudemeister, Jul 29, 2012.

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  1. popper

    popper Member

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    FCD works fine on the 30-30. Adjust the die so it crimps at the edge of the mouth, (use a LIGHT crimp or you will crush the CB) length of CB doesn't make any difference. You can use unique for those. The large groove is lube groove, the one above it is the crimp groove. Load some dummys to just below the crimp groove, no crimp. See if they get marks on the CB, seat deeper until you don't get marks. crimp there. Belling can be done with needle nose pliers, push in and rotate - isn't too accurate but works. That is a pointy CB so SINGLE load them, you have a TUBE mag.
     
  2. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    Trust me when I say you're good to go with large pistol primers using reduced loads in your 30-30. Since about '05 when we moved to the country and I set up my own range, I've fired literally thousands of reduced cast and jacketed bullet loads, mostly cast. In the first three months after I set up the range, I used almost an entire carton (1000) of CCI-300's in these loads.

    In Feb. '09 I began shooting High Power locally and use cast loads exclusively. I fire around 10 matches per year and an occasional MBAR match. That pretty easily adds up to 1000 rounds per annum not including testing, evaluating and practicing. Every single load I've fired without exception has used large pistol or large pistol magnum primers. (Performance-wise I can't tell much difference in standard and magnum though I prefer magnums when charges exceed 20 grs) The calibers include 7.62x54r, 303 Br, 308 Win, 30-06 and most of all 7.5x55 all using Bullseye, Red Dot, AA#7, AL2400, SR4759 and IMR-4198. The heavier loads, in the 308 & 30-06 used up 21 grs. of 4198 and 22.0 grs. of 2400. Not a single pierced primer or failure to fire. One must remember that cartridges such as the 480 Ruger and 475 Linebaugh use large pistol primers and operate at over 45K psi.

    Regarding Unique and jacketed bullets, I used to load 12.0 grs. and a Hornady .312" 150 gr. SP in both the 303 Br and the 7.62x54r. This load was very accurate in both calibers. I'd not hesitate to reduce it a bit and use it in your 30-30.

    If you have good neck tension with the cast bullet, they shouldn't slip as recoil with your light loads will be very minimal. If you're concerned, place the nose of a bullet in a loaded cartridge on your loading bench, press on the base of the case and see if you can push the bullet in. Betcha can't. But if it does or you're still worried, put a light crimp where you show the green arrow.

    I measured a few of the primers I have on hand and came up with the following:
    Pistol:
    Fed. 150 & 155- .120"
    CCI-300- .122"
    CCI-350- .118"
    WLP- .120"

    Rifle:
    WLR- .127"
    CCI-200 & 250- .124"

    Real world difference in the average heights is about .005". That's about the thickness of a piece of printer paper.

    35W
     
  3. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Can't use pistol primers. Large rifle primer pockets are too deep for pistol primers.
     
  4. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    I'd love to hear your experiences.

    35W
     
  5. PO2Hammer

    PO2Hammer Member

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    I would recommend the Lee universal expander as an all purpose flaring tool. It has two different flaring cones that cover all calibers and it's cheap.

    Trail Boss was made for lead bullets and the 30-30. Enough TB to reach 1,000 fps with a 115 grain lead bullet with give you about 60 load density, low velocity spreads and top accuracy. I doubt Unique will do any better.
     
  6. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    Now that I have my 30/30 bfr back I fully intend to try your advice re pistol primers for trail boss loads rather than burn up my precious LR primers

    Ill report on my results.

    I have tried pistol primers in 7.62x39 but they craters badly at those pressures and as a reverse I've used large rifle primers in 45win mag (not 458) cases to handle higher pressures and give more consistent velocities in a savage bolt action.

    I have no doubt that you're correct in your assessment 35w
     
  7. Dudemeister

    Dudemeister Member

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    According to this IMR PDF, "Trail Boss offers superb versatility in rifle cartridges producing reduced loads using lead or jacketed bullets".

    Following the instructions listed in that PDF, It looks like for the 115gr lead bullets, my starting load is at 9gr., and for the 170gr jacketed the starting load is about 8gr.

    I also found some Unique recipes at Lever Gun Performance Studies. They call for a starting load of 6gr under a 170gr bullet which generates just under 1100fps.

    As for the pistol primers, I had originally primed 10 cases, so I inserted each primed case manually in the chamber and fired it: 100% ignition. The cases are now re-primed with rifle primers, but I have no doubt the pistol primers would work just fine.

    I also ordered a Lee Universal Neck expanding die and a Perfect powder measure to complete the setup.

    As a side note, since my normal Lee Turret setup is currently in a closet, I'm using a Lee Breech Lock Hand Press for the 30-30. So far I'm pleasantly surprised by the ease of use. I was afraid that case resizing and decapping would be a bear, but it's actually pretty smooth.
     
  8. A Pause for the Coz

    A Pause for the Coz Member

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    I will pop a bit in here. I have been playing with the 30-30 for the better part of two years trying to find good cast plinking loads. Also some lower powder jacketed loads.

    For full power jacketed I use I 3031, H4895, BLC-2 and H335 Other than not really liking BLC-2 I havent done enough to find one really any better than the others. SO I load what I have on hand.

    Cast is different story. I have loaded about 1500 different combos of those in two years.

    Store purchased cast I use lazer cast 170 gr sized at .309 and .310.
    Gas check and not. These bullets are very hard cast some thing like 23Bn.

    These do not seem to react to well to pistol powder loads. Cant even get them to print in 8 inches at 100 yards.
    With the noted exception of Trail Boss Powder. 9 grains of trail Boss will clover leaf these at 50 yards all day long. Must have to do with the higher pressure this powder is working at.
    This bullet also works well with H4895 gas checked. You need to have the pressure on to get these to fly.

    The main reason I added that about the store purchased cast is because if your not casting your own. You are buying them. if your buying them your getting hard cast. Hard cast in my opinion and experience is not the right mix for low velocity plinking. Too bad too because I have about 1500 of them.

    Casting my own using a softer melt maybe 13 Bn to 17Bn. And thats good because petty much any lead you find will work good.
    Using the LEE 150 gr and a NOE 170 gr bullet.

    I get pretty good results with Unique and also with Universal.
    8.5 gr Unique seems to be the sweet spot No gas checked is fine.

    But the best of the best is 16 gr of 2400 behind the LEE 150 gr sized to .309 gas checked. Kicks them out of both my M336 and a Savage 340 at about 1800 fps and hits where you aim them every time.

    Load some up and see for your self.

    170gr NOE plain base and GC base.

    [​IMG]

    This is what you can get with the 2400 load at 100 yards.
    [​IMG]

    Another plinking load I have been playing with some. Is to take a 115gr 32-20 pistol bullet and size them down to .310
    These make a pretty light, cheap, Low recoil load.
    Again using hard cast bullets, the results pretty much sucked. Except with Trail Boss.
    Soft cast again does a fantastic job. Ahead of 8 gr Unique.

    [​IMG]

    There now... Go have fun.
     
  9. Eb1

    Eb1 Member

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    I thought 2400 would do pretty well in a 30-30.
     
  10. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

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    1. Even at .313", a cast bullet isn't to big for the .30/30 if it chambers easily. With a Marlin w/microgroove rifling, you'll get much improved accuracy with .311" or larger. I size all my cast bullets to .311" for .30cal rifles. My .30/06 also shoots better with the .311" bullets.

    2. #2400 works very, very well with cast bullets. Will work with reduced velocity loads with jacketed bullets. Just be very careful of double charges. Double check each case with a pen light to make sure they aren't double charged. A double charge will wreck a l/a rifle.
    I've used 12.5gr of #2400 with cast bullets in .30/30, but generally prefer 10.0gr of Unique.

    Remember, these are "nerf balls". A friend of my older brother used a Lee 150gr FN w/o gas-check, unsized over 7.5gr of Unique to take a white-tail doe. He'd forgot he'd loaded it as he was going to shoot a rabbit, but rabbit got away. While walking back to camp, he jumped a doe. Shot the doe in the ribs, angling away. Bullet raked through 18" of deer and exited with a 2"x1/2" exit wound. Deer ran ~75yds and dropped.


    3. Do use the Lee factory crimp die. Also be sure to trim your cases to uniform length before loading, and DO use the expander die, or a Lyman "M" die to expand the cases before seating the bullets...
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2012
  11. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Facts:

    Large rifle primers stand higher than large pistol primers, and large rifle brass primer pockets are deeper to handle the higher large rifle primer.

    A fully seated large pistol primer will be farther away from the firing pin.

    Large rifle primers use thicker cups designed for higher pressures.

    Potential problems:

    Some guns may fire them fine, while others may not, due to the firing pin not being able to reach it and give it a sufficient whack.

    If you try to run max rifle pressures with them you can get in trouble, assuming they work in your rifle.

    Obviously they will fire in some guns. Be careful using them in rifle calibers. Use common sense.
     
  12. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    If it even seats to the bottom of the pocket...and if it doesn't, misfires and/or hangfires are the usual result.

    All of'em? Put on the coffee. You're gonna be here a while.
     
  13. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    Sometimes primer cratering is not caused by pressure at all, rather by the hole through which the firing pin protrudes being large enough to allow metal from the primer cup to enter. As I said earlier, large pistol primers are used in cartridges such as the 375 Linebaugh and 480 Ruger whose pressures exceed 45,000 psi.

    35W
     
  14. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    The majority of the time, cratering is caused by a weak striker spring or excessive headspace.
     
  15. A Pause for the Coz

    A Pause for the Coz Member

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    The reason I hit on the 8.5 gr of Unique is because I ran a ladder from 7gr to 11.5 gr in 1/2 gr increments at 50 yards.
    The changes in group size was very pronounced. You could see with each set the groups get smaller and smaller until I hit 9 gr then the groups opened back up.
    At 11 gr it was at 5 inches at 50 yards and stringing.

    Barrel harmonics is very important with these powder/ Bullet combos.

    The 16 gr 2400 load no ladder is necessary. Thats the tried and true 30 cal cast bullet load.
    Use it in all 30 cal stuff down to the 30-30 and accept that it is the one. because it is.

    Oh and another great reason to shoot cast bullets. You will never wear a barrel out shooting cast. Unlike jacketed.
    I can shoot 50 30-30's at one time and the barrel is not to hot to touch. try that after 5 jacketed shots.
    They actually shoot better the more you shoot. A slightly dirty barrel is better. ( fouling shot is true)

    But dont just accept my word read this.
    http://home.comcast.net/~gavinsw/guns/castbulletmilitaryrifle.pdf
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2012
  16. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    True enough, some setups will not be able to seat them fully. Never tried it myself, the books all said is was a bad idea, and their reasons all made sense.
     
  17. Dudemeister

    Dudemeister Member

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    I just finished loading 50 rounds using the Hornady 170r. jacketed bullets. I used 8gr. of Trail Boss, which is 70% of the full (uncompressed) load, and the IMR recommended starting load. I'll be running those next time at the range, and we'll see how they perform.

    Meanwhile I also loaded 50 rounds with the Bear Creek lead bullets. The same formula was applied to these, so the starting load was 9gr. for this 115gr. bullet. Seating the bullet produces a slight ring around the bullet that can be seen in the images below. I didn't use the factory crimp, just the normal roll crimp the seating die applies. The bullet is seated just barely above the crimp groove, producing a OAL of 2.525".

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    This is just about the only concern I have. Is the round nose on these bullets going to cause problems and ignite the primer of the bullet in front of it.?

    So I call on all you experts that have loaded the 30-30. IS this something I should worry about?

    Thanks
     
  18. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    Its not something I'd worry about but I'm shooting a revolver. But in your case id stick to only single loading them as you have the combination of softer primers combined with hard RN bullets.

    Great timing, I was about to bump this thread myself as I just got to do some load testing of my own.

    7.5 g of trail boss in a FC case under a 147g FMJ ignited with a WOLF large pistol primer is good for 950 fps from a 10" BFR. accuracy was good @ 25 yds and the spent casings would fall out of an upturned chamber, ejector rod not needed
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  19. Dudemeister

    Dudemeister Member

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    Are you referring to the pistol primers?

    Other than 4 cases I primed with the large pistol primers, then subsequently re-primed with rifle primers, everything is currently primed with CCI #200 LRP's.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  20. R.W.Dale

    R.W.Dale Member

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    I didn't catch that part.

    I still don't like that bullet profile for tube mag use though, just an opinion so take it for what its worth. Just curious why didn't you order bear creeks 170f fp bullets for $1 more per package?

    Keep me posted on how these shoot though
     
  21. Dudemeister

    Dudemeister Member

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    I had both boxes in my hand, but there were a couple of things that made me get those.


    First I was looking for a lighter load, so 115gr. vs. 170gr was one of the considerations. Second, the price is the same, but the 170gr box only has 400 bullets, the 115gr. has 500.

    But ultimately it wasn't the money, it was the idea of a lighter load.
     
  22. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    Dudemeister,
    You said you loaded 50 rounds using the Hornady 170gr jacketed bullets. You do realize IMR recommends you NOT use Trail Boss with anything other than Lead bullets, right? I have read it's not safe...
     
  23. Pete D.

    Pete D. Member

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    Primers

    When I started loading for the 500 S&W, there were two types of cases being manufactured. One was for use with LRPs, the other with LPPs. This required attention. The biggest problem by far was using a rifle primer in a case that was spec'd for a pistol primer. The primer will not seat deeply enough and will jam the cylinder as it rotates. The other way round never caused a problem.

    Unique in the .30-30. Some years ago, I shot postal matches regularly with the Cast Bullet Association. I had some success using T/C Contender with a 10" barrel in .30-30. The load was the Lee 120 grain RNGC and seven grains of Unique, LRP. ES for that load was about 10-12 fps, IIRC. Very consistent.
    Pete
     
  24. Dudemeister

    Dudemeister Member

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    Actually, IMR does state in this pamphlet on reduced loads, that "Trail Boss offers superb versatility in rifle cartridges producing reduced loads using lead or jacketed bullets".

    So unless something has changed since, and if you have a link to the contrary I would really appreciated it, it looks as if Trail Boss is good for any type of bullet, Lead or Jacketed.
     
  25. Shinbone

    Shinbone Member

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    How do you flair a 30-30 case mouth?
     
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