Skylerbone
Member
Agree with hatt, amen CraigC! AA14, for your purposes, you might also look into the Ruger Mini 30 if you don't find a 30-30 that strikes your fancy. Hope that doesn't stray too far off topic, just another idea.
30-30 vs. .308 out to 200 yards?
- Thread starter Archangel14
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Archangel14
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Thanks. I actually want something with a little more "ummppff" than a .223.
Arkansas Paul
Member
Mini 30s aren't .223, they're 7.62x39 which is about the same power level as a .30-30 Win.
I'd rather have the .30-30, but that's just me. Your opinion may differ.
I'd rather have the .30-30, but that's just me. Your opinion may differ.
Skylerbone
Member
I would as well but if Archangel is looking for an short range defensive? rifle rather than a true hunting rifle then 7.62 x 39 in a semi-auto is still a practical choice. It would languish in my safe while a good lever gun would see plenty of action but again, it's all about personal decisions.
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Officers'Wife
Member
I agree with you Craig, it's not the machine it's the operator. My ancient little 32-20 will hit a target at 200 yards and still have enough energy to do some damage. My Grandfather could makes hits at unbelievable ranges with his Garand. My hubby is fair with his Remington 308 and my brother takes coyotes with his 30-30 at what I consider extreme ranges well in excess of 200 yards. But my brother has been shooting that rifle since he was 13 and he considers it almost an old friend.
range estimation is up to the shooter. some are good at it, some aren't. action type wasn't part of the question. if we leave it to cartridge effectiveness alone, either will do the trick at 200yds with proper shot placement. whether you are capable of proper shot placement with a 30-30 is a different story, and up to the individual to decide.
Archangel14
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Ah yes, forgive me. I knew that. If I went with the 7.62x39, I'd probably opt for an AK variant.
More of what I'm looking for. I'm really sold on the idea that acquaintance with the firearm is much more important than the inherent ballistics. I'm concluding that a Marlin 336 in 30-30 with much practice can be a really solid "defense" platform.
OrangePwrx9
Member
Saigas are a decent 7.62x39 AK variant. Used to be quite inexpensive compared to a Mini-30. Now they've gone up some and are getting hard to find.
They come outfitted with a hunting stock, but can be easily upgraded to full AK configuration if that's your thing. See the forum on Saiga-12.com
They come outfitted with a hunting stock, but can be easily upgraded to full AK configuration if that's your thing. See the forum on Saiga-12.com
Skylerbone
Member
It can indeed.
d2wing
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Yes there is, I repeat, there will be more tissue damage. After certain thresholds there is more tissue damage as velocity increases. This does depend on factors such as which tissue, bullet construction and range but yes, the .308 will do more damage all else being equal. If both bullets expand the .308 will transfer more energy and this will show up as bloodshot tissue. If you hit the deer in the lungs as you should death will be quicker as more of the lungs will be mush. Those of you that do not shoot enough game with a variety of weapons over a lifetime or study enough should really not confuse the poster by saying one hole is as good as another. It is not. I agree with the poster that said more deer are wounded by a 30-30. I love my 30-30 for sneaking through brush but understand it's limitations. The .308 hits harder.
Float Pilot
Member
30-30:
Most Win M-94 carbines and Marlin 336s which are chambered for the 30-30 cartridge use a 20 inch barrel.
The 30-30 AKA 30 WCF only develops about 1,950 to 2,000 fps with a 170 grain bullet fro a 20 inch barrel.
The standard 170 grain 308 caliber semi flat nose bullet has a ballistic coefficient of 0.205
IF, fired at an optimistic 2,000 fps, the 170 grain Sierra bullet is only traveling at 1,357 fps at 200 yards. Developing about 695 foot pounds of energy.
IF, that 30-30 rifle is zeroed ( sighted) at 100 yards, the bullet will drop another 11.5 inches by the time it gets to 200 yards.
Thus a miscalculation in range by only 50 yards will mean missing the vital area of a deer sized animal. 50 yards too close it will be 7.5 inches higher and 50 yards further it will be 10 inches lower.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
308Win:
Using a 20 inch barrel once again, the real world velocities for a 150 grain soft point run between 2,750 to 2,800 fps for the 308 Winchester.
A Sierra 150 grain soft point boat tail has a ballistic coefficient of 0.380
A 150 grain Hornady flat based soft point has a BC of 0.344
If we use the lower BC'ed flat base bullet and the lower velocity, we still come up with a retained velocity of 2,246 fps at 200 yards. And with a retained energy of 1,680 foot pounds.
When sighted ( zeroed ) at 100 yards it is only 4.1 inches low at 200 yards.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
RECAP:
150 grain 308 and 170 grain 30-30 from a 20 inch barrels:
308 remaining velocity: = 2,246 fps..... energy= 1,680 foot pounds
30-30 remaining velocity; = 1,357 fps....Energy= 695 foot pounds.
If both are sighted at 100 yards the 30-30 has over TWICE the extra drop out at 200 yards.
Personally I would regard using the 30-30 at 200 yards as un-sportman. It does not retain enough energy for a predicable clean kill.
Most Win M-94 carbines and Marlin 336s which are chambered for the 30-30 cartridge use a 20 inch barrel.
The 30-30 AKA 30 WCF only develops about 1,950 to 2,000 fps with a 170 grain bullet fro a 20 inch barrel.
The standard 170 grain 308 caliber semi flat nose bullet has a ballistic coefficient of 0.205
IF, fired at an optimistic 2,000 fps, the 170 grain Sierra bullet is only traveling at 1,357 fps at 200 yards. Developing about 695 foot pounds of energy.
IF, that 30-30 rifle is zeroed ( sighted) at 100 yards, the bullet will drop another 11.5 inches by the time it gets to 200 yards.
Thus a miscalculation in range by only 50 yards will mean missing the vital area of a deer sized animal. 50 yards too close it will be 7.5 inches higher and 50 yards further it will be 10 inches lower.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
308Win:
Using a 20 inch barrel once again, the real world velocities for a 150 grain soft point run between 2,750 to 2,800 fps for the 308 Winchester.
A Sierra 150 grain soft point boat tail has a ballistic coefficient of 0.380
A 150 grain Hornady flat based soft point has a BC of 0.344
If we use the lower BC'ed flat base bullet and the lower velocity, we still come up with a retained velocity of 2,246 fps at 200 yards. And with a retained energy of 1,680 foot pounds.
When sighted ( zeroed ) at 100 yards it is only 4.1 inches low at 200 yards.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
RECAP:
150 grain 308 and 170 grain 30-30 from a 20 inch barrels:
308 remaining velocity: = 2,246 fps..... energy= 1,680 foot pounds
30-30 remaining velocity; = 1,357 fps....Energy= 695 foot pounds.
If both are sighted at 100 yards the 30-30 has over TWICE the extra drop out at 200 yards.
Personally I would regard using the 30-30 at 200 yards as un-sportman. It does not retain enough energy for a predicable clean kill.
Officers'Wife
Member
Any weapon, with solid training, can become a defense platform. My poor little underpowered Winnie 92 in 32-20 can put a ball in the same hole at "social" range with a little practice. While not having the knockdown power of hubby's 308 or bubba's 30-30 or even Dad's 45-70, a round in the breadbasket is going to make even the most stubborn and dedicated hostile wonder if he may have made a mistake.
I've been told by certain Vietnam Vets that they personally knew of a "crazed boonie rat" that used to snipe at the enemy with a short bow. The claim was turning around and seeing one of your comrades with an arrow in his chest or -ahem- privates was not good for morale.
Last but by far least, remember the last stand of Don Alejo, who was not allowed by law to have true "effective" defense weapons yet in his last stand managed to kill four of his attackers that were armed with fully automatic weapons and anti personnel grenades. The lesson of Don Alejo is that if the person of the moment has decided enough is enough, it doesn't matter what they have to be deadly. The heart bent on destruction is a terrible weapon of war.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
That's an irresponsible and erroneous statement.
Or we can be realistic and unbiased and see that a 170gr .30-30, which is a fantastic penetrator, probably shouldn't be compared to a 150gr .308. A 150gr .30-30 will run an honest 2200fps with a BC of .255. As such, sighted in at 150yds, will be no more than 1½" half high up to that range and 4½" low at 200yds.
Same scenario for a 170gr Speer at 2100fps is less than half an inch less flat. So I don't know where the above nonsense comes from but that's exactly what it is, nonsense.
Energy.
A 250gr .45Colt at 900fps produces a paltry 450ft-lbs of your precious energy, at the muzzle, yet will fully penetrate any deer that walks from any angle and kill it deader than fried chicken. So maybe folks should start realizing that energy is a poor gauge of a cartridge's effectiveness against live critters. How many .30-30 haters have actually spent much time with one? Versus those just looking at ballistics tables or plugging numbers into programs? Bottom line is that the .30-30 is a simple solution to many a problem and that within its effective range, nothing does a better job on whitetail. I can see how folks with .308's, .30/06's and .300Mag's with big 3-9x and 4-12x scopes, who never shoot beyond 200yds, would be hesitant to accept that their rifles don't kill deer any deader than the lowly and unfashionable (perceived to be outdated) .30-30.
Float Pilot
Member
The Original Poster asked specifically for the 170 grain bullet.
He also said he was not exactly a sure shot.
While I agree that the 170 grain bullet will penetrate just fine even at the low velocity of 1,357 fps at 200 yards. It will only poke a 30 caliber hole, which is fine if it goes where it should. But he said he was not a sure shot..
I like the 30-30 just fine, however when using a 30-30 carbine (20 inch bbl) I limit my shots to the 100-125 yard range while hunting. Which is more than fine for a wooded area.
I grant you that the Alaskan Sitka Black-Tail deer are smaller than the southern US white tail. A big one only weighs 140 pounds. Most weigh more like 100.
When you see half of one protruding from behind a tree you have a couple seconds to make a shot before he makes the jump to light speed.
Trying that at 200 yards is a bit of a stretch after you have been climbing up a heavily wooded hill side all day.
If you wound one, they run off into the brush and the nearest Brown Bear usually finds it long before you do...
( we only have deer in limited areas of our state, The fish and game yahoos prevent them from spreading. Unfortunately all the areas with Sitka Black tail are also heavily populated with Brown Bears. They tend to be attracted by rifle shots during deer season. They will run up and steal a deer carcass while you are trying to load it in your boat. And you can not shoot a brown bear for doing that...)
Our caribou are larger, but much tougher than a deer. Every year I see wounded caribou running off from guys who hit them with 308s and 30-06s. While they do tend to migrate through open areas which would afford you a 200 yard shot from a prone position. There is no way to quickly make a follow-up shot in case you only wound the poor critter at long range. At least not with a 30-30 carbine. After the first shot the whole herd hits 50 mph in the other direction.
I have taken more than a few caribou with a 30-30 carbine, but usually at less than 100 yards with proper stalking techniques.
I also have an old 1894 Winchester with a 26 inch barrel and a tang peep sight. It generates 150-175 fps more velocity and is much more accurate than my more recent production 94 carbine. I would not hesitate to use that rifle at longer ranges, if we allowed salt lick or corn drop stations for an accurate range guess. But we do not. That rifle has taken a couple moose and a rather large brown bear. But it is worth more than our old car, so I trying not to get it too far out in the boondocks.
Tom Horn's disputed last long shot was with a 30-30 Rifle ( 26 inch barrel) and that was at 210 yards. He said it would have been the shot of his life, if he had done it...
He also said he was not exactly a sure shot.
While I agree that the 170 grain bullet will penetrate just fine even at the low velocity of 1,357 fps at 200 yards. It will only poke a 30 caliber hole, which is fine if it goes where it should. But he said he was not a sure shot..
I like the 30-30 just fine, however when using a 30-30 carbine (20 inch bbl) I limit my shots to the 100-125 yard range while hunting. Which is more than fine for a wooded area.
I grant you that the Alaskan Sitka Black-Tail deer are smaller than the southern US white tail. A big one only weighs 140 pounds. Most weigh more like 100.
When you see half of one protruding from behind a tree you have a couple seconds to make a shot before he makes the jump to light speed.
Trying that at 200 yards is a bit of a stretch after you have been climbing up a heavily wooded hill side all day.
If you wound one, they run off into the brush and the nearest Brown Bear usually finds it long before you do...
( we only have deer in limited areas of our state, The fish and game yahoos prevent them from spreading. Unfortunately all the areas with Sitka Black tail are also heavily populated with Brown Bears. They tend to be attracted by rifle shots during deer season. They will run up and steal a deer carcass while you are trying to load it in your boat. And you can not shoot a brown bear for doing that...)
Our caribou are larger, but much tougher than a deer. Every year I see wounded caribou running off from guys who hit them with 308s and 30-06s. While they do tend to migrate through open areas which would afford you a 200 yard shot from a prone position. There is no way to quickly make a follow-up shot in case you only wound the poor critter at long range. At least not with a 30-30 carbine. After the first shot the whole herd hits 50 mph in the other direction.
I have taken more than a few caribou with a 30-30 carbine, but usually at less than 100 yards with proper stalking techniques.
I also have an old 1894 Winchester with a 26 inch barrel and a tang peep sight. It generates 150-175 fps more velocity and is much more accurate than my more recent production 94 carbine. I would not hesitate to use that rifle at longer ranges, if we allowed salt lick or corn drop stations for an accurate range guess. But we do not. That rifle has taken a couple moose and a rather large brown bear. But it is worth more than our old car, so I trying not to get it too far out in the boondocks.
Tom Horn's disputed last long shot was with a 30-30 Rifle ( 26 inch barrel) and that was at 210 yards. He said it would have been the shot of his life, if he had done it...
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He also specifically asked about the 147 grain .308 bullet too but you didn't mention that poor selection just pointed out better options. OP isn't even talking about hunting and has cause the usually bickering about this and that.
1. Almost all deer are shot under 200 yards.
2. .30-30 is a fine deer cartridge out to 200 yards assuming adequate shooter/equipment ability.
3. If you're planning on the possibility of taking longer shots Hornady pointy bullets are probably a good idea.
4. If you're planning on hunting open country or power lines leave the .30-30 at home and bring something else. No such thing as the do all rifle.
Anything else?
I have a hard time believing a 180 grain .30-06 will not drop a rain deer in his sled tracks. Not to get off topic to much, but the people shooting the rifle must be the worst shots ever.
================================================================
I would agree.
If a body cant shoot straight, they need to learn how, and quit blaming it on the cartridge, as any of the cartridges mentioned here (too include 7.62x39mm) has the lethal capacity to put bambi in the dirt out to 200 yards.
With that said, 30-06 and 308 leave 30-30 and 7.62x39mm in the dust out past them distances.
Example below: ( Exit wound via one northern plains whitetail deer )
He was hit at exactly 464.8 yards with one 168gr BTHP with a BC of .464 fired from an M1A-A1.
The cartridge produced a velocity of 1873fps with 1308ft/lbs of energy upon impact.
( As a comparison, 1 170gr 30-30 HOR FTX with a BC of .33 fired thru my 20in bbl Glenfield would have produced a velocity of 1350fps with 690 ft/lbs of energy at the same distance, and under the same atmospheric conditions.)
The difference in drop (provided that both rifles were zeroed at 200yards)......
308 : 37 inches
30-30 : 72 inches
================================================================
I would agree.
If a body cant shoot straight, they need to learn how, and quit blaming it on the cartridge, as any of the cartridges mentioned here (too include 7.62x39mm) has the lethal capacity to put bambi in the dirt out to 200 yards.With that said, 30-06 and 308 leave 30-30 and 7.62x39mm in the dust out past them distances.
Example below: ( Exit wound via one northern plains whitetail deer )
He was hit at exactly 464.8 yards with one 168gr BTHP with a BC of .464 fired from an M1A-A1.
The cartridge produced a velocity of 1873fps with 1308ft/lbs of energy upon impact.
( As a comparison, 1 170gr 30-30 HOR FTX with a BC of .33 fired thru my 20in bbl Glenfield would have produced a velocity of 1350fps with 690 ft/lbs of energy at the same distance, and under the same atmospheric conditions.)
The difference in drop (provided that both rifles were zeroed at 200yards)......
308 : 37 inches
30-30 : 72 inches
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He also specifically asked about the 147 grain .308 bullet too but you didn't mention that poor selection just pointed out better options. OP isn't even talking about hunting and has cause the usually bickering about this and that.
1. Almost all deer are shot under 200 yards.
2. .30-30 is a fine deer cartridge out to 200 yards assuming adequate shooter/equipment ability.
3. If you're planning on the possibility of taking longer shots Hornady pointy bullets are probably a good idea.
4. If you're planning on hunting open country or power lines leave the .30-30 at home and bring something else. No such thing as the do all rifle.
Anything else?
======================================================================
Here you go..........
Same rifle as I mentioned before that is chambered in 308. (18.5in bbl)
Ammo = Win (USA) 147gr M80 ball Q3130 (BC = 417)
MV = 2780fps
KE = 2522 ft/lbs
200yards:
Velocity =2366
KE = 1827
Note: All of my figures are not found in some book, but compiled first hand with my own rifles, and equipment, so it doesn't get much more "realistic" than this for me at least.
Note: 147gr M80 is one of the more under rated loads spoken of on the internet. From my first hand experience of witnessing what it can do to hogs here in the states, the stuff works just fine. With that being said, there are better choices available for hunting IMO.
Note: Your probably right in regards to your 4 points quoted above. I wouldn't choose 30-30 as the cartridge for a "do all" rifle either.
My do all cartridge is currently 308 (165gr SGK BTHP to be exact, as this bullet has performed well for me on all species of NA deer, elk, and black bear. )
A Caribou wouldn't stand a chance at 200 yards , provided that the same 165gr bullet mentioned above was placed right. Same goes for 150gr bullets launched from a 308 case.
1. Almost all deer are shot under 200 yards.
2. .30-30 is a fine deer cartridge out to 200 yards assuming adequate shooter/equipment ability.
3. If you're planning on the possibility of taking longer shots Hornady pointy bullets are probably a good idea.
4. If you're planning on hunting open country or power lines leave the .30-30 at home and bring something else. No such thing as the do all rifle.
Anything else?
======================================================================
Here you go..........
Same rifle as I mentioned before that is chambered in 308. (18.5in bbl)
Ammo = Win (USA) 147gr M80 ball Q3130 (BC = 417)
MV = 2780fps
KE = 2522 ft/lbs
200yards:
Velocity =2366
KE = 1827
Note: All of my figures are not found in some book, but compiled first hand with my own rifles, and equipment, so it doesn't get much more "realistic" than this for me at least.
Note: 147gr M80 is one of the more under rated loads spoken of on the internet. From my first hand experience of witnessing what it can do to hogs here in the states, the stuff works just fine. With that being said, there are better choices available for hunting IMO.
Note: Your probably right in regards to your 4 points quoted above. I wouldn't choose 30-30 as the cartridge for a "do all" rifle either.
My do all cartridge is currently 308 (165gr SGK BTHP to be exact, as this bullet has performed well for me on all species of NA deer, elk, and black bear. )
A Caribou wouldn't stand a chance at 200 yards , provided that the same 165gr bullet mentioned above was placed right. Same goes for 150gr bullets launched from a 308 case.
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Float Pilot
Member
Hmm, I think he did originally ask about just that... If you look he had edited his original post... The wonders of the internet....
I am certainly not blaming the cartridges, but many folks whom I have hauled into the bush over the years do not do so swell when it actually comes to making a kill shot. They do OK on the range, and maybe they do OK back down-south on a ranch hunt after somebody drives them out with a golf cart to see a half tame critter. But after making them walk or climb for a few hours, a lot of them mis-judge their range and make weird wounding shots on moving critters.
( Like blowing the lower jaw off a caribou at only 75 yards, or blasting the antler base at 50 yards )
And caribou meat tastes sour if you let them run wounded .
I will only deal with wildlife photographers these days, they end to be less excitable and I can make money with the same Bear, Dall Sheep, mountain goat or Moose over and over all season long.
ThomasT
Member
The OP asked about hitting the "Upper Torso" at 200 yards. That to me means he is not talking about shooting deer at 200 yards but hitting a person. When someone is talking about hitting game they usually say "Chest Cavity".
You CAN sight an open sighted 30-30 at 100 yards and then raise the ladder on the rear sight for longer ranges. I have read each step raises the poi in 50 yard increments for each notch. Sighted in for 100 yards on the lowest notch you would need to raise it two notches. Shooting at 200 yards would confirm that the sights are good for that range. Just like the slide on military sights that are graduated for different ranges.
My speer manual shows them getting 2100fps with several loads shooting a 170gr bullet from a 20" barrel. Using a scope so you get the 1 1/2" above the bore and sight in 2" high at 100 yards and you should be zeroed at 150 and 5" low at 200 yards. That shouldn't be too difficult for the average shooter to make hits with at that range. It also shows the velocity at 200 yards to be 1609fps and have 977 pounds of energy remaining. Thats better than what others have posted. And speer used real rifles for their testing, not test barrels.
You CAN sight an open sighted 30-30 at 100 yards and then raise the ladder on the rear sight for longer ranges. I have read each step raises the poi in 50 yard increments for each notch. Sighted in for 100 yards on the lowest notch you would need to raise it two notches. Shooting at 200 yards would confirm that the sights are good for that range. Just like the slide on military sights that are graduated for different ranges.
My speer manual shows them getting 2100fps with several loads shooting a 170gr bullet from a 20" barrel. Using a scope so you get the 1 1/2" above the bore and sight in 2" high at 100 yards and you should be zeroed at 150 and 5" low at 200 yards. That shouldn't be too difficult for the average shooter to make hits with at that range. It also shows the velocity at 200 yards to be 1609fps and have 977 pounds of energy remaining. Thats better than what others have posted. And speer used real rifles for their testing, not test barrels.
If you deer hunt in woods and protect the homefront the .30-30 would be a fine do all rifle. Handy .308 bolt with lower power scope will accomplish most any task. Only problem is every time the do all rifle threads come up someone expects a gun to be a top notch CQB gun and reach out to 1000 meters. I just nip it in the bud. No do alls.
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