30-40 Krag IMR4350 150gr NosPart

Status
Not open for further replies.
C

CoRifleman

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2019
Messages
29
Location
Colorado
Hey all -

Trying to be sure I don't "shoot my eye out" on this one.

IMR 4350, R-P Cases, 150gr Nosler Partition

1898 Krag with cut down barrel, kind of a Bannerman carbine.

Hodgdon Reloading info shows a 150gr projectile with 48.5gr IMR4350 compressed as the max load.

Noslers own publication shows the same projectile with a 50gr load of IMR4350 as the "most accurate load" and their max.

I loaded a ladder 47, 47.5, 48, 48.5 and couldn't really get much better than 2" groups @ 100yds. I'd like to try 49, 49.5, and 50gr based on Noslers data, but even my Lee manual lists the 48.5 as a compressed load not to exceed. Incidentally, a 50gr load does NOT appear to be a compressed load under the projectile in a mock cartridge I set up, but is "right there."

So I am questioning the max at 48.5 being a limitation of case volume, not PSI per se, but want some more input. I only have Lee, Nosler, and Hodgdon data available.

Thoughts please?
 
I'm kind of questioning why IMR 4350 in 30-40 Krag. Especially with a shortened barrel. I'd probably be using IMR3031, IMR4064, or IMR 4895 and the slowest.
Can't help with 4350.
I wouldn't be shooting a vintage 30-40 Krag with maximum loads to start with. They only have one locking lug on the bolt and some of them were prone to cracking.
You shear off the only lug on the bolt and it's coming right back at ya!
You have more nerve than I do. I only loaded up to mid range with the Krag I had.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_st_favortie_loads_hot_off_the_press_0910/99850

Please read this. They don't mention IMR 4350 in full length barrels, let along shortened barrels.

Be Safe.
 
I shoot a lot of 30-40 Krag in several different rifles, including several original Krag-Joergensen rifles, albeit almost exclusively cast bullets in the latter. IMR4350 is a great powder for 30-40. I have never found a compressed load to be most accurate. 2" at 100 yards is about as good as an original Krag is going to deliver with open sights Indeed, it's jolly good!

I have not used the Nosler Partition in the Krag (and given its performance envelope, wouldn't recommend it), but I do have notes for a 150 gr Speer SP (manufacturer code 2022) that say "47.5 grs IMR4350: Accurate load, but bullet too short. Just about 2 MOA. 2405 FPS / 27 SD. A little hot?"

The Krag is at it's best, in my opinion and that of others including Elmer Keith who liked it a lot with 180 grs - 200 grs, in the 180 grs range with jacketed and the 200 - 220 grs range with cast. Indeed, my all around favorite bullet, used in competition with a Krag 1898 and with a Miroku made "Browning" 1895 is the Lyman 311298 GC at 210 grs. For a jacketed bullet, I would want something that would reliably open/expand in the 1900 - 2000 fps terminal velocity range.

In any event, the Krag, especially in original Krag rifles isn't about velocity, and chasing velocity in 120 year old rifles with contemporary metallurgy and a rear locking lug seems like a bad idea. I wouldn't exceed the Hodgdon 48.5 Compressed load. But if I did, I would also be moving the bullet out to maximum seating length.

Best of luck!
 
Thank you - 4350 is really a go-to powder for the Krag - but I appreciate your warnings. Your input is what I was looking for - if I really am treading a fine line. I've got IMR4895 on hand, and there are loadouts with that powder as well for the old girl. I'm searching for a 100yds and less Elk round. 150gr is really the lowest I'd look if I can balance it with velocity in the 2500fps range. But if that's pushing the rifle too hard, then I need to rethink the bullet selection.

tightgroup tiger said:
I'm kind of questioning why IMR 4350 in 30-40 Krag. Especially with a shortened barrel. I'd probably be using IMR3031, IMR4064, or IMR 4895 and the slowest.
Can't help with 4350.
I wouldn't be shooting a vintage 30-40 Krag with maximum loads to start with. They only have one locking lug on the bolt and some of them were prone to cracking.
You shear off the only lug on the bolt and it's coming right back at ya!
You have more nerve than I do. I only loaded up to mid range with the Krag I had.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_st_favortie_loads_hot_off_the_press_0910/99850

Please read this. They don't mention IMR 4350 in full length barrels, let along shortened barrels.

Be Safe.
Click to expand...
 
Doc - thank you. I really have an affinity for the cartridge. I should've put my intentions in the original post. I'm looking for a 100yd elk cartridge for cow season. I was trying to balance the performance of the Partition with the pressure limits of the action and resulting velocity limits, and 150gr at 2500fps is where I ended up. That 150gr is FAR from the lands, that's for sure. I've got some 180gr Partitions and the Hornady 220gr round nose on hand as well. I'll head back to the drawing board. Are there other bullets at 180gr range that are recommended given the velocity range it'll push them? My carbine seems to be down about 150-160 fps from book volume based on the shorter barrel.


DocRock said:
I shoot a lot of 30-40 Krag in several different rifles, including several original Krag-Joergensen rifles, albeit almost exclusively cast bullets in the latter. IMR4350 is a great powder for 30-40. I have never found a compressed load to be most accurate. 2" at 100 yards is about as good as an original Krag is going to deliver with open sights Indeed, it's jolly good!

I have not used the Nosler Partition in the Krag (and given its performance envelope, wouldn't recommend it), but I do have notes for a 150 gr Speer SP (manufacturer code 2022) that say "47.5 grs IMR4350: Accurate load, but bullet too short. Just about 2 MOA. 2405 FPS / 27 SD. A little hot?"

The Krag is at it's best, in my opinion and that of others including Elmer Keith who liked it a lot with 180 grs - 200 grs, in the 180 grs range with jacketed and the 200 - 220 grs range with cast. Indeed, my all around favorite bullet, used in competition with a Krag 1898 and with a Miroku made "Browning" 1895 is the Lyman 311298 GC at 210 grs. For a jacketed bullet, I would want something that would reliably open/expand in the 1900 - 2000 fps terminal velocity range.

In any event, the Krag, especially in original Krag rifles isn't about velocity, and chasing velocity in 120 year old rifles with contemporary metallurgy and a rear locking lug seems like a bad idea. I wouldn't exceed the Hodgdon 48.5 Compressed load. But if I did, I would also be moving the bullet out to maximum seating length.

Best of luck!
Click to expand...
 
CoRifleman said:
Doc - thank you. I really have an affinity for the cartridge. I should've put my intentions in the original post. I'm looking for a 100yd elk cartridge for cow season. I was trying to balance the performance of the Partition with the pressure limits of the action and resulting velocity limits, and 150gr at 2500fps is where I ended up. That 150gr is FAR from the lands, that's for sure. I've got some 180gr Partitions and the Hornady 220gr round nose on hand as well. I'll head back to the drawing board. Are there other bullets at 180gr range that are recommended given the velocity range it'll push them? My carbine seems to be down about 150-160 fps from book volume based on the shorter barrel.
Click to expand...


I like the Sierra 180 grs Pro Hunter (#2150) and took that out last year in my 1895 on elk with 48 grs IMR4831 (to no avail).

I have notes for IMR4350 with this bullet in a scoped Krag sporter (22" barrel) that say: "45.5 grs {no COAL unfortunately} 2350 fps - no pressure signs, SD 32 (high?) Accurate, 1.5 MOA. Good load." No COAL, but it will have seated long. I like this bullet, but any well constructed cup and core flat base bullet should be good for 150 yard elk. Have you found any of the Remington Core-Lokt 180s? Those are @2300 fps from a 22" barrel and I would use that on a cow out to 150 yards with confidence.
 
OP,
I admit I was a little drastic with my statement that the bolt could be coming right back at ya, if the front lug sheared off. The safety lug and the lever would catch it but at that point it is to late for the bolt in the rifle.
I just wanted you to realize the full potential of what you were trying to accomplish with your 98 Krag, and taking a chance on damaging a fine old rifle like that.
 
tightgroup tiger said:
OP,
I admit I was a little drastic with my statement that the bolt could be coming right back at ya, if the front lug sheared off. The safety lug and the lever would catch it but at that point it is to late for the bolt in the rifle.
I just wanted you to realize the full potential of what you were trying to accomplish with your 98 Krag, and taking a chance on damaging a fine old rifle like that.
Click to expand...

We're on the same page, no worries. I appreciate all the input and experience.
 
CoRifleman said:
Doc - thank you. I really have an affinity for the cartridge. I should've put my intentions in the original post. I'm looking for a 100yd elk cartridge for cow season. I was trying to balance the performance of the Partition with the pressure limits of the action and resulting velocity limits, and 150gr at 2500fps is where I ended up. That 150gr is FAR from the lands, that's for sure. I've got some 180gr Partitions and the Hornady 220gr round nose on hand as well. I'll head back to the drawing board. Are there other bullets at 180gr range that are recommended given the velocity range it'll push them? My carbine seems to be down about 150-160 fps from book volume based on the shorter barrel.
Click to expand...
For your described usage, I'd really love a 180 prohunter at 2000-2300 fps mz.
 
CoRifleman said:
The round nose variant? The SP looks discontinued?
Click to expand...
Yes, I'd also include the Speer hot cor and Hornady interlock (sst or rn), at these speeds it won't lose much weight on impact, and at 100 yds, a spitzer won't be a make or break. The profile will aid in the chamber leade issue and 180 is a good s.d. to run for this application, if you're dying for more speed, the bluntest looking 170 (think .30-30) or 165 will probably suffice. I'd think of the sst, hot cor, vulkan, partition, grand slam type profiles. I still run a rn in my rifles (various chamberings) and I'll tell ya, they HAMMER whatever they hit, if you get em to shoot well, stock up, I fear soon they'll be phased out for the bc fad lol.
 
The John Plute elk, B&C, World Record for 30 years, was taken in Colorado in 1899 with a Krag-Joergensen, whatever crappy 180 grs bullet was available at the time, and no more than 2300 fps MV. Speer, Hornady, Sierra - whatever 180grs you can hit vitals with consistently will score you a jolly hefty meat cow!
 
DocRock said:
Bummer. Glad I have a fair few boxes. Speer do a flat base SP spitzer 180 grs as well.
Click to expand...
Yes, I read reviews over on midway, however and it looks like this batch was run on a different machine than the ones a decade ago and the diameter is a shade smaller (Im not sure, I was reading last night and was knee deep in bullet info), so I skipped them. They're available on Sierras site if anyone needs some, and listed as "until they run out."
 
Hey all - Bullets showed up. I spent some time with an empty case and some "stuff."

Heres what I have:
Hornady 180gr Interlock Spire
Hornady 180gr Interlock Round Nose
Nosler 180gr Partition Spire
Nosler 170gr Partition Round Nose ( I guess technically a 30-30 bullet? )
Sierra 180gr Pro Hunter Round Nose
Speer 180gr Hot Cor Spire

The Krag is known for a very long throat, and on a 220gr RN I get 2.76 to the lands (case bottom to Ogive), but on a 180gr Partition I get 2.721 to the lands (Case bottom to Ogive). (That could be a measurement difference (error), or just the way the bullet hits the lands before giving me some resistance.) With the Hornady 220, with the original "Army" load of 3.100 coal, I get a base to ogive measurement of 2.66, and I am then thinking that the original round set the bullet about .100 off the lands. At any rate, setting each bullet to it's max for either min .308 length still left in the case neck while ensuring feed ability, OR matching book published load data given a specific bullet weight, here are the OAL (Ogive) measurements on each.

170 Nos Part RN 2.6275 - .1324 to lands
180 Hor Interlok RN 2.604 - .156 to lands
180 Sie PH RN 2.572 - .188 to lands
180 Spe HC SP 2.521 - .2 to lands
180 Hor Interlok SP 2.513 - .208 to lands
180 Nos Part SP 2.508 - .213 to lands

(A side note: The 150gr bullet I started the thread with, the 150gr Partition, was a full .300 off the lands, I believe. I realize most say don't worry about jump, especially in the Krag, but man that's a long way.)

So, before I start slinging powder, I'd like to come back to you guys with a couple additional questions...

1) I've read both directions on the 170gr Nos Part bullet - that it's a 30-30 bullet and is "too soft" for elk, that it's designed for 30-30 loads and velocities, AND that the Partition, in general is a great elk bullet. The 30-40 will push this thing slower than a 30-06 and slightly faster than a 30-30 - I'd like to see 2300ish. Should this be a deal breaker? I don't know if it'll translate to the range, but seating close (relatively) to the lands looks attractive here at the outset. ( I did also email Nosler about this, and will update with their response. Edit: Nosler's response was really interesting "While we do not have load data for the 170gr. PT in the 30-40 Krag, it was designed for the lower velocities such as that from a 30-30 win. This very well may be a great combination as the 180gr. is designed around much higher velocities." )

2) I've generally not read great things about the Interlocks vs a standard Cup/Core bullet on Elk. Any opinions here?

3) If these bullets all shoot "relatively" similar from an accuracy standpoint - does any specific bullet get the nod over the others at 2200 or so fps for the 180grainers? I'm shooting for a 100yd effective range here, but don't want to be "up the creek" if I can't get, say, closer than 150yds to a cow.

Thanks all, for sharing your experience.
 
Last edited:
Took some time this afternoon.

Nosler 170gr Part RN, 3.028 COAL, 2.6270 to Ogive
1898 Krag sporter, 22" barrel
IMR4350. RP Cases. 100yds

45.5 - 2189fps avg, 2.5" group
46 - 2207fps avg, 2.125" group
46.5 - 2236fps avg, 1.125" group
47 - 2270fps avg, 1.5" group

The factory spec loads are with .392 worth of bullet in the case. I'm only putting .308 in there. I think I could safely increase my load, based on today's results, but that 46.5 group looked great to me, at 2236fps and just barely over an inch.

I ran the load through Federals app and at 2236fps, this bullet carries 1500ftlbs just to 100yds, another 100fps would push me to 150yds @ 1500ftlbs. I don't know if I can squeeze another 100fps, though. The low BC is killing it. At 30fps increase with each 1/2 grain, I'd approach 48gr. 48 is the max for a 165/168gr load on Noslers data. (But again I'm putting less bullet in the case = more internal volume.) 48.5c is the max for a 150gr projectile on Hodgdon.
 
Last edited:
CoRifleman said:
Took some time this afternoon.

Nosler 170gr Part RN, 3.028 COAL, 2.6270 to Ogive
1898 Krag sporter, 22" barrel
IMR4350. RP Cases. 100yds

45.5 - 2189fps avg, 2.5" group
46 - 2207fps avg, 2.125" group
46.5 - 2236fps avg, 1.125" group
47 - 2270fps avg, 1.5" group

The factory spec loads are with .392 worth of bullet in the case. I'm only putting .308 in there. I think I could safely increase my load, based on today's results, but that 46.5 group looked great to me, at 2236fps and just barely over an inch.

I ran the load through Federals app and at 2236fps, this bullet carries 1500ftlbs just to 100yds, another 100fps would push me to 150yds @ 1500ftlbs. I don't know if I can squeeze another 100fps, though. The low BC is killing it. At 30fps increase with each 1/2 grain, I'd approach 48gr. 48 is the max for a 165/168gr load on Noslers data. (But again I'm putting less bullet in the case = more internal volume.) 48.5c is the max for a 150gr projectile on Hodgdon.
Click to expand...
I'm not with it enough to try, what's your impact velocity at 150yds with 2236? 2270?
I don't think either load should be ruled out, obvious answer is the most accurate one, but I'm curious here, and I'd not rule out 170gr .30-30 loads for your objective, so a lil extra scoot should be wonderful. I don't get hung up on ft-lbs, bullet construction and impact velocity tend to serve a better purpose. I'd not hotrod the ol gal though, if you want to up the oomph, do so very carefully. Based on .30-30 speeds I'd guesstimate that anything above 15-1600 fps impact will work dandy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

F
  • Locked
30-06 150gr hunting load recommendation
Replies
6
Views
1K
Arkansas Paul
Arkansas Paul
L
.243 85grain load data origin
Replies
5
Views
105
AJC1
AJC1
B
  • Locked
IMR 4064 - 150gr Barnes XBT - .30-06
Replies
3
Views
812
behoof
B
N
  • Locked
RL-19 in 7mm-08. VERY slow velocities?
Replies
20
Views
4K
GTS Dean
G
Gtscotty
  • Locked
30-06 180gr Sierra spbt H4350 load data
Replies
2
Views
3K
ku4hx
K
Back
Top