.30 carbine vs. 7.62 Tokarev

[JShirley]

Well, a PDW's niche is indeed small. It should be compact, and fire a round with little recoil which has great penetration, and shoots fairly flat out to 150 meters.

Sounds like a 7.62x25mm to me.

J

 

[loop]

I own a few guns chambered in 7.62X25 and have owned a number of .30 carbines. I do not put them on the same footing at all.

Beyond 100 yards a .30 is pretty much worthless, but I've popped a number of coyotes with a CZ52 (in front of witnesses) at 300 yards. The holdover on a .30 is much higher than on the Tok. That means windage is a bigger issue.

In NW Arizona we have some real wide-open spaces. I quit stuffing a carbine into the truck and went over to the CZ52 years ago. I never use the CZ for a pistol shot, but I do use it for a rifle shot fairly often.

My assessment, as someone who uses it in the field to protect domestic livestock, is the CZ is a viable weapon on standing still predators out to 300 yards. The .30 carbine is a plinker that loses viability at 130 yards. At 100 yards and under I'll take the carbine for the longer sight radius. At more than 100 yards I'll stick with my CZ. It has proven itself in the field.

 

[Squeaky Duck]

Even with all this comparison of apples and oranges, the former Soviet military is returning to the 7.62x25 round for its ability to penetrate its target. Hmm...

My primary choice of carry is still my good ol' 45, but my CZ52 is slimmer in profile which makes carry easier. They both have their use which is what matters. BUT - if the time comes that you need to use it for defense, that big hole in the end of a 45 barrel sure speaks volumes to a thug without having to pull the trigger (hopefully).

 

[wnycollector]

Hopefully someone somewhere tried that and recorded the velocities.

The 7.62x25 data below is from an ishapore .308 w/ a 25.5" barrel and a 30 mauser to .308 adapter from Ace.

Wolf JHP average-1751fps
Romanian-1823fps
Bulgarian -1890fps

 

[WardenWolf]

I have to warn you against putting Tokarev ammo in a .308 barrel. Most Western .30 calibers are .308 in diameter, including .30-06 and .308. The Russian .30 is actually .311. This will damage the bore of a Western rifle with repeated use. You probably did not do any significant damage with your test, but it is not something you should repeat. To safely perform this test, you should perform it out of a Mosin Nagant.

Oh ugh, I just read the manufacturer's site:

http://www.mcace.com/adapters.htm

Now you can turn your 308 or 30-06 into a 7.62x39 and take advantage of inexpensive ammo!

Yeah, what they FAIL to mention is that you'll destroy your bore. What a dishonest company. Never do business with these people.

 

[Deaf Smith]

In a rifle the carbine will win in velocity and weight for the same barrel length.

In a pistol, same barrel length, I bet the carbine will still be a bit better but the weapon will be longer.

So I'd take the M1 Carbine in .30 carbine any day, and a CZ 52 in Tokarev for the pistol.

Simple as that.

 

[Squeaky Duck]

Deaf Smith, you are comparing a RIFLE cartridge to a PISTOL cartridge. The powder in the carbine round burns much slower and is not suited to a short barrel like a pistol has. Out of a 6" barrel a typical .30 carbine round is lucky to do 1300fps because most of that powder burn time is wasted in muzzle blast since a carbine rifle has about 18" of barrel and the powder is intended for the burn time a long barrel offers which gives an average bullet speed of up to 2000fps. The 7.62x25 is made specifically for a short barrel gun and has a faster burning powder to maximize the pressure build to drive the bullet to its intended velocity, which in this case for a 4.72" barrel is about 1650fps with much less muzzle blast. The 7.62x25 round originally was intended for a Russian designed SMG which has a 120mm barrel as does the CZ52. In fact these two guns were both made to share the same round so that a Russian soldier did not have to carry two different kinds of ammo. The KGB liked the pistol since it was designed to not hang on clothing yet put a hole in whoever they shot regardless of how much heavy clothing they wore. I reload (as do many here) so I do take burn time into consideration as well as other factors, like chamber pressure, size of the powder charge, burn rate and bullet weight. Ok, I'll step off the soapbox now.

 

[max popenker]

the former Soviet military is returning to the 7.62x25 round for its ability to penetrate its target

No, it is not. Production of the 7.62x25 has completely ceased in USSR circa 1986, and while tere's still huge stocks of the military grade 7.62x25 ammo, army does not use it

Instead, Russian army adopted its own version of the ubiquitous 9x19 Luger in +P+ loading and with AP bullet (known as 9mm 7N21)
FSB and FSO use slightly more powerful 9x21 ammo with heavier AP bullets as well.

 

[Funderb]

The Russian .30 is actually .311

actually, THIS russian .30 is .308

 

[Deaf Smith]

No doubt Squeaky. That is why I prefer the .30 carbine in a rifle and the 7.62x25 in a pistol and not vice-versa.

 

[Squeaky Duck]

Yup.

One thing is for sure, the 7.62x25 with hollowpoints is a NASTY round to get hit with.

 

[jdh]

Mike the Wolf,

FYI the bullet pulled from a 7.62X25 round measures .307 on my caliper.

 

[stillaftermath]

I've never had a chance to shoot a .30 carbine pistol but have been at the range next to a guy shooting one. The muzzle blast from the .30 carbine is as bad as a .50 S&W.

The best description I can give for firing an AMT AutoMag III is getting smacked in the face by a wet towel and having dynamite blasting caps set off in each ear. I've not tried the Ruger Blackhawk or the rarer .30 Carbine pistols, but I don't have a ton of desire too, either.

 

[-v-]

7.62x25 is indeed a .308 or so diameter bullet, since 7.62x25 TT is +P+/Magnum loading of 7.63 Mauser. The two rounds, other than for powder charge, are identical. It is also no small secret that the soviets copied the 7.63 Mauser to the 7.62TT, calling it 7.62 to skirt around paying for patent rights and royalties to Mauser.

 

[docjim]

I have always wanted a carbine in 7.62X25. I have loaded them with JHPs in my CZ52 but they tear up on impact. What I found was they work much better with a lead tip softpoint as a defensive round. They mushroom well & stay together. I have several thousand rounds of surplus Euro mil rounds so I disassemble them & replace the FMJ with a similar weight bullet of better construction. I own 2 30 m1 Carbines & love to shoot them without doubt, but I feel the 7.62X25 is ideal for a carbine load.. I have even sought a cylinder adapter to fit the round into a rifle chamber but so far no luck.. I would like to see it in an SKS or 91-30. The ammo is still cheap & available, unlike the 7.62X39 it hasn't reached $300 per thousand rounds. "DOC"

 

[harmon rabb]

I've had a chance to shoot a Chinese 7.62 Tokerov that a friend of mine owns and it has quite a bit of pop to it. Quite similar to shooting a .357 mag with light bullet. He says its a very reliable gun that's never jammed on him and he can get about any gun to jam including my Beretta 92 that been 100% reliable for me becaue he has a tendency to limp wrist when shooting. He took the Tokerov to shoot some steel target one time and the range monitor told him he'd have to quite using it because it was damaging the targets.

I was told to stop shooting my Tokarev at an indoor range because the bullets were making huge sparks when hitting the backstop. I talked to the range officer after and he thought it was penetrating through the absorbent material and hitting the concrete behind it.

For those who say that the 7.62x25 is inferior to the 9mm or 9mm+p, check out this little article:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm

even a hot .357 load couldn't get through a kevlar helmet, yet the 7.62x25 did.

 

[jdh]

7.62X25 uppers for AR

http://cncgunsparts.com/services