300 Ham'r vs 6.5 Grendel

[Double Naught Spy]

Yes, Bill Wilson is very sold on the product that he sells (imagine that!), proclaiming it as good as a .308 and more effective than a 6.8. Apparently, the ham'r bullet has found the magical synergistic sweet spot in lethality between velocity, recoil, caliber, and bullet weight....according to Bill Wilson...because we needed yet another sub .308 .30 caliber cartridge that somehow eeks out a special spot between 7.62x29, .300 BO, Rem 30, etc.

It is fine for what it is, but it isn't a magic bullet/cartridge.

 

[David Hoback]

Synergistic Sweet Spot?

Hmmm.. That certainly is an interesting statement.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I'm thinking of abandoning the 123sst in favor of the 90gn tnt. I've shot straight through all my hogs with the sst.

I am a big fan of the 90 gr. TNTs for killing hogs, and SST 123s as well. I have literally killed many hundreds of hogs with each. I find that the SSTs can penetrate both shoulder areas through the chest and exit on hogs up to 200-225 lbs and fairly consistently on hogs below 200 lbs inside 100-150 yards. These rounds are usually coming apart in the process, which I do like.

TNTs, when recovered, rarely have pieces larger than 20 grs. and usually more like 10-14 grs. and that is going to be the bottom of the base (like a little button). TNTs certainly can overpenetrate shoulder area shots up to 160 lbs, but less so than the SSTs. While have have nothing against the SSTs, I like the TNTs for flatter shooting and they are plenty effective inside the typical 200 yard range, though I have certainly made kills out to over 250 yards with TNTs.

I tend to consider TNTs to be safer to use because of how much they fragment, any overpenetration is of smaller pieces that aren't apt to travel very far with much momentum and velocity to do harm very far out.

Some people want overpenetration with their bullets. Some people don't. I don't really care one way or the other as long as it is good at killing the hog.

Synergistic Sweet Spot?

Hmmm.. That certainly is an interesting statement.

What else could it be? It has less velocity, less energy on target, and less recoil than the .308 yet kills ever bit as effectively as the .308 and is apparently better at killing than cartridges like the 6.8 SPC (which would include Grendel and several others) or other .30 cals that shoot at similar velocities (according to Wilson). After you rule out magic and divine intervention, what other options are there? There has to be some explanation for why the ham'r is purported so much better than everything similar.

 

[someguy2800]

This thread is the definitive work on the ham'r bill Wilson is very active on it. https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/7506626/43

He uses an 18" barrel and shows photos of how he is giving teddy Roosevelt a run for his money in his quest to kill every living thing larger than a wristwatch in Texas. He was very fond of the 135grn hot core bullets, and has recently gotten into some fancy (Leigh defense?) Copper bullets. Heck, I think Wilson combat bought the company making them. But I'm not going to buy fancy bullets. That was the whole point of abandoning the blackout in favor of the hammer. I could use a cheaper bullet that killed effectively. No more barns black tips for me! The 125 tnt seems to kill fine and is cheap. For the grendel, I'm thinking of abandoning the 123sst in favor of the 90gn tnt. I've shot straight through all my hogs with the sst. I want something that expands better. But again, shot placement is key. I've had more hogs run off, never to be found than just fall over. And while it's possible I'm missing them, often you can hear the bullet hit and they squeal and still run off. Now, after that first shot, shooting at a running hog off hand with a thermal scope on one power at 80 yards, I'm sure Ive missed
plenty

If I ever circle back around to using my 7.62x39 on deer again I would like to try that 135 hot core. I hear good feedback on it. That probably won't happen though until my daughter is old enough to hunt, assuming she has any interest.

 

[bangswitch]

I haven’t needed 24” to get 123’s up over 2550.

Me, either. My loads chrono at 2530 from a 20" and still have the muzzle energy of a .38 Super (using a 125 grain bullet) at 1000 yards. Should be plenty for deer or hogs at 300-400 yards, with properly placed shots. That's about 1178-1025 ft-lb.

6.5 Grendel. I dislike of the Hammer for the same reason I dislike the Blackout. .308” 125gr bullets are flying dinner plates! They have horrible ballistics! No range, & no penetration. Just look at the BC & SD #’s on them.

They get the job done at reasonable distances for a Blackout. 125's at 2100 fps will have about 1224 ft-lb MV, and 155's at 2000 will go 1375 ft-lb and carry their energy better, since they're boat tails and have both a better BC and SD than the lighter bullet. I never consider a 300BLK to be more than a 250 yard rifle anyway. I have both, BTW (6.5G and 300BLK)

 

[mavracer]

It is fine for what it is, but it isn't a magic bullet/cartridge.

I think that pretty much covers all the cartridges that live within the AR15 magwell. They all make compromises, but they all also live in a pretty sweet spot for deer/hog size animals.
As others have mentioned a 223 has enough oomph and the 350 Legend has enough range to cover most hunting situations so of course everything in between is just a slight change in the balance.
The 6.5 Grendel living pretty much right in the middle is a nice balance, I was seriously considering one but went 224 Valk. I like the 350 Legend better than the Ham'r.

 

[David Hoback]

It’s funny to me when a person attempts to speak DOWN to me with ballistics.

Not once did I say 300 Hammer wouldn’t kill something. The OP asked our opinions. I gave mine with supporting evidence. But now I’ll expound with ample PROOF of that evidence. Simply because your numbers are well… wrong.

Here’s your 300 Hamr load at 2500fps. And probably not even as good because I gave it the benefit of the doubt! This is the absolute HIGHEST BC bullet there is for a 125gr 308. Most 125gr .308” bullets are BARELY getting to a .300 G1 Coefficient.


And here is a 6.5 Grendel load. Not even all that crazy. Reloaders are getting a bit more velocity.


The 6.5 is better from jump street! At 300-400yds.. Fagettaboutit! The 6.5 is way, WAY out in front. And at 1000yds, while the 6.5 is still Super, the 300 Hamr has long gone SUB-SONIC and likely has the accuracy of a rock! The 6.5 Grendel absolutely DECIMATES the 300 Hamr, let alone the 300 Blkt. And I’m not even a fan of the Grendel.

This is why I laugh. If one wishes to “preach” Ballistics to me, they had better come correct. I don’t deal in what I think is true. I only look at real numbers. Later.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The 6.5 is better from jump street! At 300-400yds.. Fagettaboutit! The 6.5 is way, WAY out in front. And at 1000yds, while the 6.5 is still Super, the 300 Hamr has long gone SUB-SONIC and likely has the accuracy of a rock! The 6.5 Grendel absolutely DECIMATES the 300 Hamr, let alone the 300 Blkt. And I’m not even a fan of the Grendel.

Most hunters don't hunt beyond 200 yards. The ham'r seems to do fine within that range. If the OP is planning on hunter farther, then the ham'r may not be the best choice. As far as penetration, the hammer may not have the same sectional density, but it seems to penetrate just fine for hunting needs on deer and hogs. These aren't exactly hippos or elephants

Grendel folks liked to argue with 6.8 SPC folks about sectional density and penetration and how the Grendel was better, but in the field, nobody could tell the difference between the wounds between the two when shooting the same bullets. Grendel folks argued how their BC was better than 6.8 SPC and it truly was, but it just wasn't a very good argument, particularly for hog hunters, when virtually nobody his hunting hogs at 500 yards, much less, a 1000 yards, and even then, at that range, while Grendel might be better than 6.8 or .300 ham'r, it isn't a particularly great choice for the job.

 

[David Hoback]

There are ample videos of Hog hunting online. And everyone I’ve seen seems to show just about every rifle cartridge working just fine. Down to 223, the hogs seems to go down no problem.

I’m gonna say any “bad” hog stopping that people have encountered, was likely due to BAD shot placement.

 

[Beck]

I would do the grendel between those two. Not a fan of the ham'r. I just don't really get what it brings to the table that a 7.62x39 doesn't.

I agree, if you really want to reach out and touch someone go with the 6.5 Grendel. But for typical hog and deer hunting within 250 yards, 300 Ham'r does nothing that 7.62x39 can't do.

One thing I'm thankful to Bill Wilson for is that I use a lot of the 300 Ham'r load data for 7.62x39. Wilson simply reinvented 7.62x39 and called it something else. It's been tried before with 7.62x40, 300 AAC BLK, etc, but no cigar. 7.62x39 still rules.

SAAMI pressure specs for 7.62x39 were wrong from the beginning... way too low. I'm a big Ruger fan, but they royally screwed up when establishing the SAAMI spec for x39. C.I.P. specs are more like it. Unfortunately there's no real interest out there to revisit the SAAMI spec for x39 and fix it.

I ignore SAAMI and load on the hot side, and of course factory x39 from C.I.P. regulated countries is generally on the hot side. Some loading manuals also ignore SAAMI, with data that pushes the pressure and velocities to what they should have been in the first place.

 

[greyling22]

Jeepers, why does everybody get so butt hurt in these "which caliber" discussions. If someone thinks a different round is better than yours, that's ok. Shoot whatever you want. One might get you an extra 50 fps over another. It's not a big deal.

Yes, to the x39 guys, you have a capable caliber. Your cheap ammo is also drying up, and once it does, there is no longer any reason to use it over any other caliber. Special mags, special bolt. To the 6.8 guys, you have a capable caliber. A great round. And it's dying, so have many other great rounds. Special mag, special bolt. To the hamr guys, you have a capable round. It's not magic. You get a standard bolt and mag, but beyond that its mostly marketing.
It may or may not take off, and it's mostly a reloaders round. And not really any better than anything else. To the grendel guys, you have a great round. Better than the others at distances you shouldn't be hunting at, and about the same in distances you should be. And it requires a special bolt and mag.


And all will fade away in time as the army moves to a different platform with a larger magazine well. It will trickle down to the civilian market and new hair splitting discussions will occur.

 

[robin banks]

id encourage you to review the ballistics and compare… examples with 16” barrels are:
7.62x39 (125 grn, 2365 fps/1552#)
300 blackout (125 grn 2175 fps/1313#, though I do run hand load 110 ttsx at 2404/1411#
the 6.5 grendel gets close with hornady 123 grn (2580 fps/1818#) but that’s with a 24” barrel versus 16”…300 hamr running a 16” barrel, 125 grn Speer Wilson factory load is 2500 fps/1735#

The thin wall on the bolt that grendel uses along with having to run much longer barrel for comparable ballistics for a hunting rifle imo makes this a no brainer…as said, imo, but barrel length to me is a big deal for a hog hunting rig

for long range target or a range rifle, the barrel length doesn’t matter much but you said you were looking for a hunting round..out of ar15 the hamr is top of the chart from what i’ve seen

It’s also very accurate and Wilson usually has a wide range of ammo choices.

my 18” barrel runs 130 grain speer hot core at 2531 FPS/1848 foot pounds of energy and is very stout for hogs

Imo literally what’s not to like about it?

with 300 blackout powder in a 7.62x39 you can get 2600 fps with a 125 gr bullet

 

[mavracer]

One might get you an extra 50 fps over another. It's not a big deal.

But but but it's easier to blame the cartridge for not making that extra 50 than admit I suck at hunting or am a bad shot.

 

[David Hoback]

I’m trying to figure out why someone thinks “everybody gets so Butt Hurt”. I’ve ready every response. I don’t believe people expressing their choice between two cartridges, & giving reasons why(which is exactly what the OP asked), is getting butt hurt?

So, because everyone does not agree with your particular way of thinking, you believe they are butt hurt? Hmmm

 

[someguy2800]

I agree, if you really want to reach out and touch someone go with the 6.5 Grendel. But for typical hog and deer hunting within 250 yards, 300 Ham'r does nothing that 7.62x39 can't do.

One thing I'm thankful to Bill Wilson for is that I use a lot of the 300 Ham'r load data for 7.62x39. Wilson simply reinvented 7.62x39 and called it something else. It's been tried before with 7.62x40, 300 AAC BLK, etc, but no cigar. 7.62x39 still rules.

SAAMI pressure specs for 7.62x39 were wrong from the beginning... way too low. I'm a big Ruger fan, but they royally screwed up when establishing the SAAMI spec for x39. C.I.P. specs are more like it. Unfortunately there's no real interest out there to revisit the SAAMI spec for x39 and fix it.

I ignore SAAMI and load on the hot side, and of course factory x39 from C.I.P. regulated countries is generally on the hot side. Some loading manuals also ignore SAAMI, with data that pushes the pressure and velocities to what they should have been in the first place.

yep I see people claiming 2300 fps for a 125 gr and my eyes roll out of my skull. Heck my 16” 300 blackout did 2400.

with 300 blackout powder in a 7.62x39 you can get 2600 fps with a 125 gr bullet

Can confirm. And that’s not even a hot load.

 

[Beck]

Yes, to the x39 guys, you have a capable caliber. Your cheap ammo is also drying up, and once it does, there is no longer any reason to use it over any other caliber. Special mags, special bolt.

^^^ I get the general reasoning of your post, but this part of it is way off. 7.62x39 may be the last caliber available if hypothetically speaking every ammo maker suddenly stopped production of all calibers. That's why it's a better choice that Ham'r and many others.

Everything is expensive now, but it's not drying up. I'm still shooting NOS Chinese and Yugo x39 from the 1970s. There are tons of it in sealed tins already in country.

The Chinese stuff has been banned from import since 1989, but whatever was already imported could be and still can be sold. I just bought another half case of steel core less than 2 years ago.

People thought inexpensive blasting ammo was going away then, but over 30 years later it's still here. It will be the same with Russian ammo and x39 from the many other countries that produce it.. There's already so much of it in country, we're swimming in it. We've been through ammo crises before. It's no big deal. We'll get through this one too and prices of everything, including guns and ammo will come down.

It may seem like the end of the world at present. It always does when we're in the thick of it... but it is not the end of the world.

 

[someguy2800]

X39 ammo is still cheap. There is still Tula and Wolf on the shelf at my local store, and although it’s now 8.99 a box instead of 3.99 like it used to be, that is still cheaper than any 5.56 ammo that I’ve seen locally, the tide rises all ships. As for needing special bolts and mags, that is only relevant if your converting an existing 223 upper or already have 223 mags. If your building or buying an upper there is no difference in cost between a 223 bolt and x39 bolt. Good X39 mags are cheap and readily available and if you are shooting steel case, the savings on ammo will pay for the mags. The negatives for the X39 are that the steel case ammo is questionably useful for hunting as some of it expands and others don’t, and it can be difficult to find reloadable brass. When I hunted with mine I actually pulled the bullets on steel case ammo and replaced the powder and seated 125 accubonds in their place to make disposable handloads.

 

[David Hoback]

Steel crap is just that! Brass only! Those who don’t reload need to start! Reloading teaches so much. It gives the shooter valuable knowledge & a much greater understanding of ballistics, chambers, specifications…everything.

Those who don’t reload think they know.. but they have no idea. Once you reload, your eyes are opened.

 

[Beck]

Steel crap is just that! Brass only! Those who don’t reload need to start! Reloading teaches so much. It gives the shooter valuable knowledge & a much greater understanding of ballistics, chambers, specifications…everything.

Those who don’t reload think they know.. but they have no idea. Once you reload, your eyes are opened.

Ok, I'll bite. I've shot more "steel crap" than brass through my Ruger Mini-30 in the 32 years I've owned it, and I bought it new. I've run across brass crap made in the USA. There's a lot of good steel and brass and there's some bad.

I also reload, but I wouldn't say you must reload to have, "much greater understanding of ballistics, chambers, specifications…everything." You can have the knowledge without it being experiential knowledge. You can study and read all about it.

I have enough brass and reloading components to be handloading 7.62x39 long after I'm dead. But I continue to use steel case as well, and I know which is the good stuff and which is the not so good stuff through many years of experience. That goes for both brass and steel case varieties.

 

[David Hoback]

 

[someguy2800]

My barrels sure don’t think steel steel case is crap. This is wolf 124 gr hp



Here are 125gr accubonds loaded into steel cases.

 

[rdnktrkr]

I have a couple of Grendels and they shoot great, I have ran them out to 600 easily at the Talladega CMP range and farther at our property and have surprised a few people with their accuracy, I found my 24" barrel one to be more accurate than my friends 18" or my 20" but that could be because of anything else besides the length ( I got lucky with the 24")
I've been looking at the Hamr and like the idea of a 30cal AR that uses regular mags (that I have boxes of), I always thought the 300BO was designed for a silencer, If I was building a Hamr I'm thinking a 20" or longer barrel (I have enough short barrel ARs) and maybe a muzzle brake so my Grandson would be able to shoot it comfortably
I've also been looking at the 6ARC and feel it might be a little better than the Grendel especially if just punching paper but it is currently hard to find the brass and I don't want to resize brass that I currently have a gun chambered in (6.5Grendel)

 

[mavracer]

So, because everyone does not agree with your particular way of thinking, you believe they are butt hurt? Hmmm

There's a difference between not agreeing and not accepting someone's position.
An ad hominem attack on people, who use steel case ammo, claiming they are just ignorant certainly goes beyond simple disagreement.
I reload and have a very good understanding of external ballistics, but I enjoy shooting more than reloading so I also appreciate less expensive factory ammo.

 

[David Hoback]

You are just being disingenuous and putting words in mouths.

 

[Archie]

The choice is based on using the AR-15 (or variant thereof) system. I've been sour on the AR-15 system since I first shot one in 1969.
Frankly a good bolt gun (I have a CZ) in 7.62x37mm with 150 (+/-) bullets beat out most anything else in the category.

You're a big kid, make up your own mind.