CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I think it's time to step away from this tinfoil hat nonsense.
300 Ham'r vs 6.5 Grendel
- Thread starter Keyfer 55
- Start date
- Status
6mmMAX
Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2022
- Messages
- 12
Cartridges are a compromise in all directions. Being able to seat 55gr to 100gr bullets to same OAL of 2.300 gives same relation to the lands for relative accuracy across the entire range. Obliviously there will be a difference between secant and tangent ogives.
What’s the bullet jump on a 6mm ARC loaded with a 55gr bullet? Also, bolt is mil-spec for .378 case head. No reduction in pressure for fear of premature lug failure.
No loss in round count , and no mag feed issues from short fat cases.
I would say there are many benefits for utilizing the 6mm MAX. It’s not a one trick pony although it is currently a hand-loaders cartridge. Loading charts have already been developed at the pressure test lab and are available on-line.
To my knowledge there hasn’t been a .378 case head cartridge developed that holds 35 grains of water and loads all bullets to same OAL?
Innovation is what drives our industry , no matter how great or small the achievement.
See you at shot show this year.
Brian Cook
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 14,883
@6mmMAX - I’m glad you like it I guess. I’m not terribly certain what’s innovative about a 6-223 AI? I don’t have much interest in 100grn blunt bullets which have to be used for such long cases to fit 2.3” mag length, but as long as you like it, it’s your money. Like I said, I’d rather fly East to go East, instead of circumnavigating the world to get to the same location.
6mmMAX
Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2022
- Messages
- 12
Not sure I would compare the 6mm MAX to a .223AI as equals any more than I would compare a 6mm ARC to a .243LBC.
The 6mm MAX was designed to effectively double the practical range of an M16 from 300 yards to 600 yards which it does well. It stays SS to past 1000 same as the ARC. Neither have any use out there other than punching paper. Putting 1000lbs energy on target at 300 yards and 750lbs at 500 yards makes is viable for many jobs.
The 6mm MAX was designed to effectively double the practical range of an M16 from 300 yards to 600 yards which it does well. It stays SS to past 1000 same as the ARC. Neither have any use out there other than punching paper. Putting 1000lbs energy on target at 300 yards and 750lbs at 500 yards makes is viable for many jobs.
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 14,883
I didn’t.
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 14,883
It’s effectively the same thing you’ve produced with the “6 Max.” Blow out a 223 cylinder case and punch it back to 6mm. It has the same problem yours has - the case is too long to make use of the 100grn class bullets which are actually worth using. But a blown out 6-223 Improved should push a 100 class to 2650-2700 without laying on too much gas.
The point I’m making - your 6 Max isn’t an innovation, it’s simply a new twist on the 6-223 Improved, and it comes with the same problems the 6-223, 6 Hagar, and 6mmAR/243LBC have had… long cases don’t allow long bullets into short magazines. Hell, you’re almost 200 thou longer than 6mmAR, and the 6AR already runs out of room for long, high BC bullets…
So choosing between a 6 ARC and a 6 Max, it’s poor BC bullets, custom dies, and a relatively small supply of relatively poor brass, rather than factory ammo and high BC bullets available to the ARC… one seems obviously more favorable…
The point I’m making - your 6 Max isn’t an innovation, it’s simply a new twist on the 6-223 Improved, and it comes with the same problems the 6-223, 6 Hagar, and 6mmAR/243LBC have had… long cases don’t allow long bullets into short magazines. Hell, you’re almost 200 thou longer than 6mmAR, and the 6AR already runs out of room for long, high BC bullets…
So choosing between a 6 ARC and a 6 Max, it’s poor BC bullets, custom dies, and a relatively small supply of relatively poor brass, rather than factory ammo and high BC bullets available to the ARC… one seems obviously more favorable…
6mmMAX
Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2022
- Messages
- 12
The 6mm MAX and a 6-.223 share nothing in common other than the case head size. Utilizing a new straight wall cartridge for a parent to make a bottle neck cartridge in 6mm that holds 35gr water capacity and getting the math right to hold 55-100 gr bullets all at the same OAL is innovative and hasn’t been done before. If it has can you please name the cartridge?. Give credit where credit is do. I get it everyone wants to make the ARC comparison as it’s the latest offering. The ARC is a one trick pony. One bullet doesn’t fit all jobs , the same as one caliber doesn’t fit all jobs . The 6mm max has the same accuracy with 55gr bullets as it does with 100gr bullets.
Varminterror
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2016
- Messages
- 14,883
There’s no point in seating all bullets to the same coal. Chasing a dead goat - nobody actually cares if you catch it.
Not much of a trick pony at all since yours can’t load proper 100grn class bullets since the case is too long.
Not much of a trick pony at all since yours can’t load proper 100grn class bullets since the case is too long.
someguy2800
Member
Are you making them @6mmMAX? Is the case body the same taper as a 350 legend? If so I think it’s a nice idea for a varmint round. I have no use for a 55 grain 6mm bullet but I like the 75 and 87 grain vmax and the like on coyotes. Nice little gain in case capacity over 6x223 and no need to fireform shoulders is a good thing. 350 legend brass is about 1/3rd the cost right now also. Not everything needs to be a target rifle.
I’ve been wanting to build a 14.5” 350 legend so it would be kinda slick to just recycle the brass from that.
I’ve been wanting to build a 14.5” 350 legend so it would be kinda slick to just recycle the brass from that.
6mmMAX
Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2022
- Messages
- 12
Yes , we make the brass with Warner dies. They are Correctly headstamped also.
70 sierra BK and 87vld perform really well.
3350fps and 3009fps, respectively
someguy2800
Member
I’m still unclear, is the taper angle still the original 350 legend angle or is it blown out? I’m interested in a barrel if I can form brass from annealed 350 legend cases without fire forming.
6mmMAX
Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2022
- Messages
- 12
The taper angle is not the same but cLose enough to be irrelevant. If your thinking about stepping down .350 to .243 without purpose built dies (5) and not having to fireform, then I’m confused.
.350 legend cases are .005 smaller than spec at both case head and case mouth. It’s a way manufactures ( not me) increase feeding and reliability issues in an AR platform. My cases are to spec and don’t require fire forming .
I currently have 10,000 pieces of correctly headstamped brass ready for loading and more on the way.
.350 legend cases are .005 smaller than spec at both case head and case mouth. It’s a way manufactures ( not me) increase feeding and reliability issues in an AR platform. My cases are to spec and don’t require fire forming .
I currently have 10,000 pieces of correctly headstamped brass ready for loading and more on the way.
Reinventing the wheel and can't change a tire.
Loading all weight bullets to the same OAL only works if all bullets have the same tip to ogive length.
So the reality is the 6mm Max would be the one trick pony here in only being able to shoot relatively short tip to ogive bullets. Where as the shorter ARC can shoot both long tip to ogive and short tip to ogive.
someguy2800
Member
Correct, I absolutely would want to form my own brass from new or once fired 350 legend brass. I would would probably go to .300" and then 6mm, and then probably need to turn the necks I would guess. Looking at rough dimensions a 7.62x39 or 30 herrett die could probably do the intermediate sizing. Respectfully if I have to buy brass from you then there just isn't enough there to lure me away from my 6x45. I enjoy forming wildcats so I don't mind doing that, especially when there is no excessive case cutting or fireforming required. Using fired 350 legend brass would get me closer to your shoulder diameter.
Last edited:
someguy2800
Member
Maybe we should take this offline or start a new thread but I'm seriously interested in getting a barrel when you guys are ready. When 350 legend was released I was pretty excited for the inevitable cheap brass and wildcats to come from it.
6mmMAX
Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2022
- Messages
- 12
neck turning isn’t required , only case length trim. going in 2 steps will have a higher brass failure rate, as splits and folds will occur more often.
But if your enjoying it , that’s all that matters.
I would agree it’s time to end this thread as folks are taking things the wrong way and no longer contributing with facts.
You don't get to make up your own facts and this just isn't true
55 and 100 gr bullets don't have the same tip to ogive measurement by quite a bit a 100gr hornady that jumps less than .050 will have a 55gr V-Max jammed over .100 so not even close to the same relation to the lands.
Seems like I've seen this kind of story play out before with .243 dua bullets.
6mmMAX
Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2022
- Messages
- 12
Bud, I’ve tolerated your insults long enough , you need to go back and read what I said in the original post . Then take a breath and think . Posting half of what somebody says to try and alter their point is nefarious. Maybe a pic will help you . On the left is a 55 nosler and on the right is a 100 hornady. Neither bullet is jamming the lands as you state.
I’ve included a second photo that shows 21 bullets from 55gr to 100gr all loaded and pressure tested @2.300 OAL . None of these bullets are jamming the lands.
Attachments
Last edited:
It's not an insult to tell someone they're wrong.
Oh look who took 1/2 of what I said, if none of them are jammed into the lands the longer nose bullets are jumping over .100 to the lands. You can stomp your feet and call me mean all you want but seating bullets with different nose to ogive lengths to the same OAL can't keep the ogive's relationship to the lands the same.
6mmMAX
Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2022
- Messages
- 12
I have not cut and pasted from any of your rants. You have done this from my statements trying to prove a point. Don’t spin it or deflect.
I have shown the bullets weights tested and discussed the difference between secant and tangent ogive as one difference in ogive to lands between the two. It’s no where near .100, maybe your number comes from a 105VLD? The 6mm max doesn’t load a 105VLD for gas guns.
Bullets with the same ogive in 6mm grow rearward as weight increases and ogive to tip stays relatively the same.
I included the photo to help you maybe understand this. Calling people wrong based on presumptions and lack of facts is a bit problematic.
The 6mm max case trim length is 1.715, COAL is 2.300
The math works out to .585 bullet tip to neck.
we utilize bullets that fit within this profile which is most, but not all, bullets 100gr and under. Had you read this from the beginning and applied it in this context of bullet weights as I have , you might not be so quick to rant.
Sorry only trying to point out the flaw in one claim about your perceived advantage seating all bullets to the same depth. If you want me to hit more of them at once I can.
Being able to seat all the shorter nosed bullets to the longest mag length isn't an advantage it gives up the advantage of seating a long nose bullet at 2.300 and just seating a short nose to a shorter OAL to ACTUALLY KEEP THE RELATIONSHIP TO THE LANDS THE SAME.
These are just strait up backward. You can absolutely run the short 55 and 58 in the ARC and you actually have to seat it shorter than OAL to keep it from being jammed.
Ok LOL where'd you get 300 yards from?
Reality check by limiting your 6mm bullets to what the 6mm Max is capable of using you're also limiting bullets to ~ .400 G1 ballistic coefficient your really not gaining much over what a guy can do by just sticking some 77gr SMKs in his 5.56 certainly NOT DOUBLE.
Staying just supersonic at 1000 and flying past 1000 with a couple hundred feet per second isn't THE SAME.
For a bonus you're all wrapped around the axle with 35gr water capacity, but what's the effective capacity with a 100gr bullet seated?
Like I said before this scenario has played out before giving up versatility in one aspect to gain a little in another. But much like the 300 Hamr and 22 Nosler your 6mm Max basically going all in to gain a little velocity with some bullets and giving up the ability to shoot some bullets ultimately hurts versatility much like 50+ years ago with the 243 Win vs 244 Rem Remington going all in as a Varmint cartridge lost the war.
The truth of the matter 50 to 100 fps at the muzzle means less to most Varmint hunter than 200 fps means to a long range shooter past 800.
Last edited:
someguy2800
Member
He is obviously not trying to build a long range competition cartridge to compete with 6mm ARC, so any comparisons to it are pointless. If you want to be able to shoot 108 eld's then this isn't your slice of pie. I'm interested in it for shooting coyotes with a 75 or 87 gr vmax and giving me a little more oomph from a 16" barrel then my 6x45. I don't give a hoot about versatility, I pick a task for each of my rifles to do well and I develop a load to perform that task. The ability to load 55 grain and 108 grain eld's is irrelevant to me. This is appealing to me over 6mm arc because it can use the 350 legend barrel I ordered yesterday as my brass source rather than buying $1/round 6mm arc brass and I already have a bolt and mags to use for it. So I'm glad it was not made to be more like a 6mm arc because that would just make it worse for what I want to use it for.
You're absolutely correct it was pointless for him to make the claim comparing the MAX to the ARC at 1000 that I disputed.
Glad you're glad, hopefully the Coyotes will be super impressed with that extra 100 fps or so.
- Status
