300 win mag effective range on moose
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grubbylabs
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Well x wrench have you seen where moose live around here? I am not saying I would but you could easily have a shot at a moose as long as you wanted to take out here. You are just as likely to see a moose cruising a ridge line as you are an elk in some areas, so a 1,000 yard plus shot for the right shooter and equipment is a real possibility.
All over in the high sage brush moose areas in western Wyoming. I shoot a lot of long range rifle but 950 yards is just too far for me to chance a shot at a big game animal. I can understand why an accomplished long range shooter would consider such a shot under ideal conditions in the quest of an ego gratifying personal best...but I use prairie dogs when looking for bragging rights. Folks who think they can gear up and make one shot ethical kills at 800-1000 yards a norm under real field conditions need to get out more.
ghostwriter
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@shaggy430
OK, I can't hold my tongue any longer and guess I might as well throw this out there for you. As I gather from your very antimant post, you feel the Sierra MatchKing bullet is NOT for hunting big game, ESPECIALLY a moose.
Well, I have to tell you... I wasted a perfectly good 200 gr SMK bullet to show you and the others on this board that this bullet (200 gr SMK) has the EXACT cutaway as the bullets used in the very high priced FUSION ammo expressely made apparently for big game, at least that's what it says in the ad for them. They say in the ad that the superior shape of the boatail is preferred basically to provide better and flatter trajectory... imagine that, a target bullet performance for placing the bullet where it belongs and with enough energy to do the job. I really don't see any difference in the two bullets except the sierra has a better 'shape' with the same case and core construction. No difference.
Of course if you believe a bullet with a lead core and a copper jacket can be "pre-programmed" then this is of little value to you. If you believe everything you hear or read, then you are a perfect example of a retail marketing target. They will market an old product with fancy new magic print that makes everyone who just reads and accepts it as the truth just to continue their sales figures in the upward direction.
It should also be noted that Cabella's doesn't sell a 200 gr. FUSION cartridge for the 300 win mag but they do sell a 180 gr. one. Just for kicks I ran the ballastics on both (assuming both were sierra matchking's at 2900'/sec muzzle velocity) and you'd be interested to know that at 500 yards, MY 200 gr SMK has about 2127'/sec velocity and 2008 ft lbs of energy... and the 180 gr only has 2025'/sec and 1640 ft lbs of energy.
Considerably less.
SO, using a little logic here, I gather that the FUSION cartridge is less of a BIG GAME cartridge than my handloaded one. If you go out another 100 yards further to 600 as I previously drew my own personal limit at, the 200 gr has 1987'/sec and 1753 ft lbs vs. the 180 gr at 1872'/sec and 1400 ft lbs of energy.
Now I ask, in a very nice way... Which one would you prefer to shoot the moose with at 600 yards... the FUSION Big Game cartridge OR my handloaded 200 gr SMK target (?) round? Here's a little picture to help make that decision for you.
OK, I can't hold my tongue any longer and guess I might as well throw this out there for you. As I gather from your very antimant post, you feel the Sierra MatchKing bullet is NOT for hunting big game, ESPECIALLY a moose.
Well, I have to tell you... I wasted a perfectly good 200 gr SMK bullet to show you and the others on this board that this bullet (200 gr SMK) has the EXACT cutaway as the bullets used in the very high priced FUSION ammo expressely made apparently for big game, at least that's what it says in the ad for them. They say in the ad that the superior shape of the boatail is preferred basically to provide better and flatter trajectory... imagine that, a target bullet performance for placing the bullet where it belongs and with enough energy to do the job. I really don't see any difference in the two bullets except the sierra has a better 'shape' with the same case and core construction. No difference.
Of course if you believe a bullet with a lead core and a copper jacket can be "pre-programmed" then this is of little value to you. If you believe everything you hear or read, then you are a perfect example of a retail marketing target. They will market an old product with fancy new magic print that makes everyone who just reads and accepts it as the truth just to continue their sales figures in the upward direction.
It should also be noted that Cabella's doesn't sell a 200 gr. FUSION cartridge for the 300 win mag but they do sell a 180 gr. one. Just for kicks I ran the ballastics on both (assuming both were sierra matchking's at 2900'/sec muzzle velocity) and you'd be interested to know that at 500 yards, MY 200 gr SMK has about 2127'/sec velocity and 2008 ft lbs of energy... and the 180 gr only has 2025'/sec and 1640 ft lbs of energy.
Considerably less.
SO, using a little logic here, I gather that the FUSION cartridge is less of a BIG GAME cartridge than my handloaded one. If you go out another 100 yards further to 600 as I previously drew my own personal limit at, the 200 gr has 1987'/sec and 1753 ft lbs vs. the 180 gr at 1872'/sec and 1400 ft lbs of energy.
Now I ask, in a very nice way... Which one would you prefer to shoot the moose with at 600 yards... the FUSION Big Game cartridge OR my handloaded 200 gr SMK target (?) round? Here's a little picture to help make that decision for you.
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I hate to get into a lot of thread drift, but I did have a pretty good conversation with one of the bullet technicians at Sierra about the SMK for hunting. According to him, Sierra simply does not recommend the SMK for hunting because it was designed for paper punching and they haven't tested it for hunting. From a construction point of view, the jacket is thinner and softer than their hunting bullets and the the core is also softer. The concern would not so much be bullet failure at long yardage as it would be bullet failure at close yardage with high velocity. FWIW, folks use Berger bullets for hunting and they have thinnner/softer jackets, and as soft or softer cores than the SMK.
dprice3844444
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dprice3844444
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ghostwriter
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HOLY CRAP! That's what I'm talkin' about. Excellent report there dprice3844444. Where do you guys come up with all this cool stuff? This is exactly what I'm referring to. Did you see the objective for the 300 win mag...(?) reach out to 1500 yards accurately. Nice info. I belong to Lens board as well and did read up on that stuff your link pointed to. Very interesting group but they mostly are extreme long range hunters like me and have personal experience at those yardages and have seen for themselves the performance of various loads and projectiles. That accounts for a more valid opinion on the longer distances and higher confidence of success I think.
As far as the bullet performance at close range... I'm thinking the closer the target is, the better your ability to place the shot perfectly. In other words more generic... If you try good shot placement at 600 yards (where apparently the bullet performs better) the circle of probability hits is much larger than at 100 yards or 200 yards.
I haven't cross cut a Berger yet but your observation about them being thinner and less dense lead alloy (?) internally is interesting, and lends ev en more validity to my choice of the SMK 200 gr bullet. It seems to be in the middle between the FUSION bullet assembly and the Bergers.
I have some 168 gr VLD's coming to test in my 300 win mag so it'll be intersting to see what happens. I should probably take some gelatin out see how they expand, or don't expand. Should be very eye- opening.
As far as the bullet performance at close range... I'm thinking the closer the target is, the better your ability to place the shot perfectly. In other words more generic... If you try good shot placement at 600 yards (where apparently the bullet performs better) the circle of probability hits is much larger than at 100 yards or 200 yards.
I haven't cross cut a Berger yet but your observation about them being thinner and less dense lead alloy (?) internally is interesting, and lends ev en more validity to my choice of the SMK 200 gr bullet. It seems to be in the middle between the FUSION bullet assembly and the Bergers.
I have some 168 gr VLD's coming to test in my 300 win mag so it'll be intersting to see what happens. I should probably take some gelatin out see how they expand, or don't expand. Should be very eye- opening.
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dprice3844444
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i just googled the same question you asked
ghostwriter
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NICE! Great minds think alike. LOL
dprice3844444
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now,your shots at that yardage are also going to be determined by what type of hunting rifle you are using.standard hunting rifle off the rack,i'd shoot it first and work up to that yardage to see if it will handle that yardage to see what gives.at the yardage you are looking at,your looking at a match grade sniper rifle type,which is going to be way heavier.remington makes a nice bolt action sniper rifle in 308/300win/338 lapua,that might work better.my 300 win knight kp1 single shot,400-500 might be stretching it,but untill i can get it to a range,i'll never know.
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From Sierra Bullets FAQ's
Hunt with SMK's if you wish..But do so at great risk of loosing and seriously wounding an animal.
Especially on thicker skinned bigger boned animals like a moose.
Quoted from Sierra.
ghostwriter,
The fusion bullet is a bonded core bullet the SMK is not. Do you understand the difference between the two?
Hunt with SMK's if you wish..But do so at great risk of loosing and seriously wounding an animal.
Especially on thicker skinned bigger boned animals like a moose.
Quoted from Sierra.
ghostwriter,
The fusion bullet is a bonded core bullet the SMK is not. Do you understand the difference between the two?
ghostwriter
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I have to take issue with your scarey comment,
"...Hunt with SMK's if you wish..But do so at great risk of loosing and seriously wounding an animal.
Especially on thicker skinned bigger boned animals like a moose."
since many of those size animals have been taken over the past decades, long before these speciality bullets hit the market.
I have located some verbage from Sierra that makes pretty interesting reading, I believe it was written years ago when they had just released their 200 gr SMK bullets and were being inundated with inquiries as tot he uses that were acceptable.
"...Sierra States that "the Hollowpoint Matchking Bullets are FOR HUNTING and will cause Hydraulic shock damage on big game due to the Hollowpoint in the Matchking Boattail bullets they Make. They were requested by and are for hunters who need performance at longer ranges , and They perform more reliably than lead tipped expanding bullets !"
With the Hollow points , the airflow over the nose is less sensitive to Imperfections encountered with the nose of lead soft point bullets , making them more stable in flight, hence More accurate down range.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/hunting_bullet_guide2.htm
Is a very good guide summary showing the various types from various mfg's.
I agree to a point that many of the "modern day" high technology bullets have their niche in the world and you could write a novel on their proper intended use.
I do understand bonded bullets. Some are hot forged (?) where the molten lead is dropped in the copper jacket at 800-900 degress and thus bonds the lead core to the copper jacket. Some are chemically bonded... the bottom line is, there's a copper jacket and a lead core, haulin butt at several thousand feet per second and whatever you tend to argue about, that bullet is going to tear stuff up when it hits.
Where it hits is up to you. If you need every technologically cutting edge advantage available and can afford to fill your reloading shed with every bullet made to reload into every specific need you might have, congrats on your position. I, on the otherhand, use a tried and true bullet, it's performance is very familiar to me and in my hands, I'd consider myself a surgeon in the right situation where others would tend to watch thru the glass and let their trophy pass for lack of confidence and predicability at making the shot with the rifle of their choice in their skilled hands.
Here's a nice bit of reading comparing some 165-168 gr sierra mk's to others of similiar design, and it's very interesting the results they got. All are acceptable in my book. Just one more bit of proof that bullet placement determines YOUR longest distance to take game at.
http://arealmansreviews.blogspot.com/2010/09/fnar-review-fifth-range-test-100-yards.html
I simply posted the Cabella's ad showing a cross section of the bullet they describe as being the one for that big trophy takedown, next to the SMK target bullet I reload which is very prdictable (to me) out to the max ranges I shoot.
I can hardly wait for the next generation bullets to come out, you know, the ones' with micro-chip computers in them that guide the bullet to it's target.
"...Hunt with SMK's if you wish..But do so at great risk of loosing and seriously wounding an animal.
Especially on thicker skinned bigger boned animals like a moose."
since many of those size animals have been taken over the past decades, long before these speciality bullets hit the market.
I have located some verbage from Sierra that makes pretty interesting reading, I believe it was written years ago when they had just released their 200 gr SMK bullets and were being inundated with inquiries as tot he uses that were acceptable.
"...Sierra States that "the Hollowpoint Matchking Bullets are FOR HUNTING and will cause Hydraulic shock damage on big game due to the Hollowpoint in the Matchking Boattail bullets they Make. They were requested by and are for hunters who need performance at longer ranges , and They perform more reliably than lead tipped expanding bullets !"
With the Hollow points , the airflow over the nose is less sensitive to Imperfections encountered with the nose of lead soft point bullets , making them more stable in flight, hence More accurate down range.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/hunting_bullet_guide2.htm
Is a very good guide summary showing the various types from various mfg's.
I agree to a point that many of the "modern day" high technology bullets have their niche in the world and you could write a novel on their proper intended use.
I do understand bonded bullets. Some are hot forged (?) where the molten lead is dropped in the copper jacket at 800-900 degress and thus bonds the lead core to the copper jacket. Some are chemically bonded... the bottom line is, there's a copper jacket and a lead core, haulin butt at several thousand feet per second and whatever you tend to argue about, that bullet is going to tear stuff up when it hits.
Where it hits is up to you. If you need every technologically cutting edge advantage available and can afford to fill your reloading shed with every bullet made to reload into every specific need you might have, congrats on your position. I, on the otherhand, use a tried and true bullet, it's performance is very familiar to me and in my hands, I'd consider myself a surgeon in the right situation where others would tend to watch thru the glass and let their trophy pass for lack of confidence and predicability at making the shot with the rifle of their choice in their skilled hands.
Here's a nice bit of reading comparing some 165-168 gr sierra mk's to others of similiar design, and it's very interesting the results they got. All are acceptable in my book. Just one more bit of proof that bullet placement determines YOUR longest distance to take game at.
http://arealmansreviews.blogspot.com/2010/09/fnar-review-fifth-range-test-100-yards.html
I simply posted the Cabella's ad showing a cross section of the bullet they describe as being the one for that big trophy takedown, next to the SMK target bullet I reload which is very prdictable (to me) out to the max ranges I shoot.
I can hardly wait for the next generation bullets to come out, you know, the ones' with micro-chip computers in them that guide the bullet to it's target.
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ghostwriter,
Congratulations on your surgeon like ability with a rifle.
Here is the link from the manufacturer that specifically warns against using SMK's for hunting. SMK's have never been and will never be intended for hunting use and that has NOTHING to do with newer technology bullets nor did I recommend new technology bullets in my post. I simply applied Occams razor to point out that it doesn't matter how the cross section of the bullet compares they are fundamentally different due to the bonding process which keeps the bullet from explosively separating from it's jacket allowing more predictable terminal performance and better predicts penetration.
I use standard cup and core bullets all the time. That has nothing to do with SMK's they are not a hunting bullet.
You can argue and post links all you want but when the manufacturer strongly recommends against using the bullet for hunting that's good enough for me. And with the accuracy I get from many hunting bullets I have no reason to use an SMK for hunting. Game Kings work just fine at reasonable velocity.
The link
http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=techservice&page=faq
Congratulations on your surgeon like ability with a rifle.
Here is the link from the manufacturer that specifically warns against using SMK's for hunting. SMK's have never been and will never be intended for hunting use and that has NOTHING to do with newer technology bullets nor did I recommend new technology bullets in my post. I simply applied Occams razor to point out that it doesn't matter how the cross section of the bullet compares they are fundamentally different due to the bonding process which keeps the bullet from explosively separating from it's jacket allowing more predictable terminal performance and better predicts penetration.
I use standard cup and core bullets all the time. That has nothing to do with SMK's they are not a hunting bullet.
You can argue and post links all you want but when the manufacturer strongly recommends against using the bullet for hunting that's good enough for me. And with the accuracy I get from many hunting bullets I have no reason to use an SMK for hunting. Game Kings work just fine at reasonable velocity.
The link
http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=techservice&page=faq
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ghostwriter
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thank you.
In regards to the OP.
I think trying for a moose beyond 500-600 yards is ill-advised.
In regards to the OP.
I think trying for a moose beyond 500-600 yards is ill-advised.
Sunray
Member
"...moose beyond 500-600 yards is ill-advised..." Even that is pushing it if you can't hit a 9" pie plate at those distances. A 950 yard hunting shot is rediculous. A 190 grain bullet doesn't have enough energy at that distance and when sighted in at 200 it drops 39.8" at 500, never mind 950.
"...Hydraulic shock..." What? There's no such thing as 'hydraulic shock'.
"...reach out to 1500 yards accurately..." That has nothing whatever to do with hunting.
"...Sierra States that..." Rubbish. "ballistic performance match shooters need to fire at long ranges under adverse conditions."
"...Hydraulic shock..." What? There's no such thing as 'hydraulic shock'.
"...reach out to 1500 yards accurately..." That has nothing whatever to do with hunting.
"...Sierra States that..." Rubbish. "ballistic performance match shooters need to fire at long ranges under adverse conditions."
shaggy430
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Ghostwriter, I've done nothing more than provide you with what Sierra and Hornady state about their own bullets. I can see it has been eating you up inside as you have gone through all of this trouble. I apologize for providing you with the information from their websites. Please take shots at extreme distances at large animals with thin jacketed bullets all you wish.
On a separate note, I am planning on taking my pickup to the moon. Will you please cut it in half to determine if it is suitable to make the trip?
On a separate note, I am planning on taking my pickup to the moon. Will you please cut it in half to determine if it is suitable to make the trip?
Art Eatman
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The Good Lord did not intend that meese be shot at 950 yards.
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