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300 yard FAL accuracy

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Motega, Feb 23, 2011.

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  1. Motega

    Motega Member

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    Given match grade ammo and superb optics, and discounting user error does anyone think a FAL is capable of sub .5" groups at 300 yards?
     
  2. JDMorris

    JDMorris Member

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    Absolutely not.
     
  3. dzelenka

    dzelenka Member

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    What he said.
     
  4. M1key

    M1key Member

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    Nope. More like sub-5 inches.
     
  5. alemonkey

    alemonkey Member

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    Are you thinking sub .5 MOA? That would be a < 1.5" group at 300. That would still probably be out of the reach of a FAL. Also pretty much all autoloaders and most bolt guns, as well.
     
  6. Z-Michigan

    Z-Michigan Member

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    Uh, no.

    How many precision bolt rifles are capable of that kind of accuracy?

    Is this to settle some gunstore idiot's claim?
     
  7. JDMorris

    JDMorris Member

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    Even on a machine rest, an FN Fal will not EVER make that kind of group, I'd doubt my boltguns of being able to do that and those are very accurate.
     
  8. RONSERESURPLUS

    RONSERESURPLUS member

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    no, i have to agree with others, while I love that fal, it won';t do that! As others said, many boltb guns wont!, Asking too much, I'd day!

    ron
     
  9. HankC

    HankC Member

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    I will be happy if my bolt guns can do 0.5" group at 50 yds.
     
  10. Birdmang

    Birdmang Member

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    I want my guns to have minute of animal I am shooting at.
     
  11. henschman

    henschman Member

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    What would that be, 1/6 MOA?

    Has anyone here ever actually seen a rifle shoot a 1/6 MOA group?

    No possible way any FAL in existence could do it... or any semi-auto, for that matter.
     
  12. Motega

    Motega Member

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    WHoooooAH fellas.... as a NJ "city boy"... albeit one that's been hunting/shooting since I was 5 (over 30 years ago) I am in disbelief that you all are shaking your heads at even BOLT action accuracy at 300? I can shoot a US quarter with my .45 (open sights of course) at 75 feet and a grape tomato at 50 yards open sights with my 10/22... with my muzzloader at 100 yards iron sights a water balloon all day long... my .30-06 at 200 yards crappy factory loads and a Leupold...easy sub .5" groups. I'm bragging a little but not exaggerating a bit
    That said, I trust you fellas are doing the same which makes me sad- I thought with an ACOG on a really nice FAL I should be able to achieve 1" groups at 300 with match ammo.
    I am absolutely in shock that some of you are saying you can't group a few shots under an inch apart at 50 yards. Again, I'm not trying to be a wise arse but I am clueless when it comes to competing and what rifles are "supposed" to be capable of but I can tell you that we have measured off 100 yards at our hunting camp and I can't think of a single long gun I own -including my Remington 870 (rifled barrel) shotgun- that I can't get the holes to touch in the black at 100 yards.

    I didn't think I was much above average for an experienced shooter... am I missing something here? I thought MOA was 1" at 100 yards.
     
  13. prid93

    prid93 Member

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    MOA is about 3.14 inches at 300 yards. As henschman pointed out, a .5in group at 300 yards is about 1/6 MOA. I have never heard of an FAL putting up groups like that.
     
  14. Hatterasguy

    Hatterasguy Member

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    No, Fal's were not built to be tack drivers. A couple MOA is more than enough to hit a person at 300 yards, that's what they were built for. Nothing more.

    For that kind of accuracy your going to need one heck of a bolt gun, Sako maybe, Accuracy International, etc.
     
  15. gun addict

    gun addict Member

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    remington 870 shotgun, 1 moa touching at 100 yards? And an ACOG is far from a precision sight for 300 yard shooting dont you think?
     
  16. Motega

    Motega Member

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    Yes, using Lightfield sabots my holes regularly overlap at 100 yards and I'm not using a bench I'm just sitting "Indian Style" resting with my back against the deck stairs. An acog has a decent reticle, why wouldn't I assume that I could put them all in the black and near each other?
    I'm really not trying to be a wise guy ... I don't have a lot of friends that shoot and while my dad is a good hunter he doesn't give a damn about target shooting with a rifle. I just don't have any reference point to know what to expect. I think it is the ta11J-308 and like I said it has a decent crosshair reticle with some ballistic hash marks... I'm really shocked that you guys think what I'm expecting is out of line! Live and learn I guess.
     
  17. W.E.G.

    W.E.G. Member

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    I say your FAL is not capable of shooting two five-shot groups of two inches at 100 yards when the groups are fired back-to-back, and the rounds are fed from the magazine by the normal gas operation of the bolt.
     
  18. Davek1977

    Davek1977 Member

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    What the majority of posters have said is correct. The FAL just is not mechanically capable of that sort of accuracy with any sort of consistency at all. Even if you take the shooter, optics, and ammo out of the equation, its still extremely unlikley if not impossible. What exerpeince do you have with this rifle that makes you think your expected groups would be a reasonable expectation? ANy at all? While you may be accurate enough with your other firearms, that doesn't mean squat when the rifle itself is incapable of such accuracy. The best shooter in the world isn't going to change a gun that is only capable of shooting 2 inch, 100 yard groups into one that shoots .5 in groups with skill alone.
     
  19. Z-Michigan

    Z-Michigan Member

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    I have. A number of them actually. All of them are from benchrest shooting competition, i.e. using a "railgun" with a barrel that makes a bull barrel look like a pencil. Ammo is generally reloaded on the spot for the day's conditions. It is possible, but it's not practical.
     
  20. Z-Michigan

    Z-Michigan Member

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    I can believe that Motega is doing fairly small groups with a rifled-barrel shotgun shooting sabot slugs. That's effectively just a large bore rifle. And what's he's describing isn't sub-MOA anyway.
     
  21. LNK

    LNK Member

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    Yup, mine does it every shot....
     
  22. henschman

    henschman Member

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    Motega, it sounds like you don't really understand the concept of the "cone of dispersion" of a group, and how MOA are used to measure it. If you can shoot a 1" group at 100 yards, it doesn't mean you will also shoot a 1" group at 300 yards, even if you take all external ballistics like wind out of the equation. Your groups expand at a uniform rate as the range increases, producing a cone extending out into space within which your bullets impact. Basically, range magnifies any tinly little variation in rifle movement or bullet flight path. A tiny fraction of an inch movement of your muzzle can result in you missing your point of aim by several feet at 100 yards, and you will miss by twice as many feet at 200 yards. That is because you are changing the ANGLE that your barrel is pointed toward the target, and the distance between the rays of an angle increase as distance from the vertex increases. So when shooters are trying to measure their accuracy, they are really trying to measure the angle of the cone of dispersion within which their bullets strike. That's where Minutes of Angle come in. A minute of angle is 1/60 of a degree. It is almost exactly 1" per 100 yards.

    This is much better explained with diagrams and such. Come to an Appleseed if you want to get a better explaination of it, and of how to use it to sight in a rifle at any range with just one adjustment. You will also learn a lot about the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship.

    About the ACOG... A FAL with an ACOG would be a great battle rifle, and could easily be relied on to put down 2-legged varmints out to 600 yards or more. The ACOG reticle is designed for quick hits on man-sized targets at unknown distances. They have exceptionally clear glass and are tough as nails. But they aren't particularly high magnification, and their reticles aren't really designed for precision. Not to say you can't shoot some very precise groups with an ACOG... my ACOG'ed M1A has put up some 1 MOA groups with surplus ammo... but they aren't really optimized for precision. Kind of like how a 24x target scope wouldn't be optimized for combat from close quarters out to 600 yards, like an ACOG is.
     
  23. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

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    Not even dedicated High Power rifles are capable of sub .5" groups at 300 yards.

    You are talking about shooting 1/6 MOA groups.
     
  24. C-grunt

    C-grunt Member

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    To get a rifle that will consistantly shoot near 1 inch groups at 300 yards would require spending several thousand dollars on a bolt action rifle and glass.
     
  25. Robert

    Robert Administrator Staff Member

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    The FAL is a great battle rifle. But it is what it is. A field accurate work horse. It is not a precision rifle.
     
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