.303 British rechambering and identification

[Frostbite]

I thought the long gun registry was no more

I will be brief.

You are absolutely right... and wrong!

The federal (Canada) unrestricted firearms, or long guns, to speak simply (understand traditional, old school, hunting type rifles and shotguns and not too evil looking target rifles such as the P14 for example, with less than 10 shots capacity (center fire) or less than 5 shots capacity if semi automatic) registry has been abolished, but a new registry is now in place in Québec (provincial or state equivalent government level if you prefer) for these unrestricted firearms in order to replace the federal long gun registry, which had already cost more than $2 000 000 000.00 in Canadian tax dollars.

I guess you could compare Québec's situation in Canada to California in the U.S.A. (on a variety of subjects, actually).

A majority of the media and politicians in Québec province believe it makes our world safer to register all guns. The anti-guns lobby is very powerful in Québec, including its most extremist proponents, even if they are most of the time trying to be subtle if not discrete. We live in a parliamentary democracy, so these groups (lobbies, media, elected politicians) decide the laws we must obey.

Also, it is worth noting that both the restricted and prohibited classes of guns are still mandatorily registered in all of Canada. Some long guns are part of these subcategories (think ARs and variants), which also include all handguns used in street violence, especially in Toronto, where innocent victims were found dead in the crossfires between gangs, some using, I must guess, registered handguns.

In the news, recently, the said handguns have been blamed for an increase of the gangs violence in Toronto (Ontario). In Montréal (Québec, ethnocentric majority of the population), when gangs shoot at each other, the media says gang related violence is rising.

We rarely if ever hear such other reasonings screaming that gun related violence comes from improper or inadequate education, unfair wealth distribution or ethnic and social groups competition, even less from people dealing with severe mental health issues (because they would have to be treated). So, instead of educating the masses and feeding poor people, learning to everybody peaceful conflict resolution and proper and safe firearms use, our government prefers to regulate firearms and ammunition commerce, ownership, usage, transportation and stocking.

An interesting parallel could be established with another product recently legalized in Canada for which consumption right is now raised to age 21 in Québec only, where legal majority is 18. Our Premier explains on TV while I am typing this that he expects teenagers will not buy said product from criminals (as they always have been) because they won't be allowed to buy it from the state operated stores. Yes, our citizens elected this guy as our Premier. Democracy at its best, once again: out of three bad and one dangerous choice, we the people chose the least intelligent leader, secretly hoping he should hopefully be less able to implement his equivalent agenda.

Put simply, because I want to obey the present law in my province of residence, I am registering all my firearms, including my muzzleloader; yes, they are firearms in Canada, as opposed to primitive weapons in the U.S.A. if memory serves me right.

More closely related to my OP, I have not forgotten about the request for some more pictures of the marks on my P14, but I have been busy with my son's pediatric cardiologist and geneticist, whom we see for free (after some waiting time). Parking is $25, though. Québec is kind of a socialist democratic state, I guess. We have the most beautiful women on earth and a brand new gun registry, cheers!

Hope this answers your question, I did my best. Good night. More pictures still to come.

 

[mustanger98]

"The rifle was designed with a iron sight line consisting of rear receiver aperture battle sight calibrated for .303 British Mk VII ball ammunition at 300 yd (274 m) with an additional ladder aperture sight that could be flipped up and was calibrated for 200–1,000 yd (183–914 m) in 100 yd (91 m) increments and 1,000–1,650 yd (914–1,509 m) in 50 yd (46 m) increments."
https://www.wikizero.com/en/Pattern_1914_Enfield

BTW, you can also use Lee Enfield sight blades which are different heights in a P14. The zero for those will be different though.

Okay, to me, this confirms that the main 300yd aperture with the 300yd zero will allow the P14 to function as a hunting rifle. MkVII ball, IIRC, is running 2440fps. I remember when Cabelas had some 174gr SP's (made by PMP in South Africa, but then they quit importing from there) which mimicked MkVII. Plenty of room on that ladder aperture for square range work, too.

 

[boom boom]

Okay, to me, this confirms that the main 300yd aperture with the 300yd zero will allow the P14 to function as a hunting rifle. MkVII ball, IIRC, is running 2440fps. I remember when Cabelas had some 174gr SP's (made by PMP in South Africa, but then they quit importing from there) which mimicked MkVII. Plenty of room on that ladder aperture for square range work, too.

Just make sure that you have the issued p14 front sight and you are good.
The lee enfield sight blades are varying heights for zeroing and you need to adjust for the p14 rear sight height and distance of front and rear sight. Someone worked out the sight corrections maybe in Canada or Australia and posted it on one of the forums but did not save it.

 

[illinoisburt]

Just make sure that you have the issued p14 front sight and you are good.
The lee enfield sight blades are varying heights for zeroing and you need to adjust for the p14 rear sight height and distance of front and rear sight. Someone worked out the sight corrections maybe in Canada or Australia and posted it on one of the forums but did not save it.

Somebody took the time to sporterize the rifle. Unlike today where bubbas like to create range toys, far and away the majority of these conversions were simply to make inexpensive hunting rifles. It's very probable the gun was used for many years in the woods. The sights are likely to be regulated already for some common flavor of hunting ammo. That's not to say someone took the effort to find a correct replacement sight blade, rather chances are the original has been modified.

 

[mustanger98]

Somebody took the time to sporterize the rifle. Unlike today where bubbas like to create range toys, far and away the majority of these conversions were simply to make inexpensive hunting rifles. It's very probable the gun was used for many years in the woods. The sights are likely to be regulated already for some common flavor of hunting ammo. That's not to say someone took the effort to find a correct replacement sight blade, rather chances are the original has been modified.

From what I see in the photos, the issue sights are there, but we can't see the front well enough to tell if it's been altered. If I understand right, I'm thinking Canadian hunters commonly use MkVII ball, if that's what's handy, which these sights are regulated for.

 

[hso]

It seems to me this could be a candidate for rechambring.

I would think that a good cleaning is all that's needed. I have both the US and the UK variants. Robust and accurate rifles.

.303 might be more expensive than some other readily available round, but it is a fine round on its own and the price of rechambering would buy a lot of high quality .303 to shoot.

 

[Gordon]

You realize the bolt face of the P14 is about the same as Magnum rifle cartridges, the length is plenty long, the strength is there too. It takes very little follower work to feed nicely and the bore would clean up at say .338 ? Just saying there are options to a .35 Epps with over the counter ammo.

 

[Smj]

Just going to tag this. I'm pretty darn interested in the Enfields since I picked up a decent 1918 SMLE here a few weeks ago. One of those USA models like that would be high on the "Next Buy" list.

 

[Frostbite]

Here are the markings and additional pictures of the sights. Apologies for the delay.

 

[Frostbite]

You realize the bolt face of the P14 is about the same as Magnum rifle cartridges, the length is plenty long, the strength is there too. It takes very little follower work to feed nicely and the bore would clean up at say .338 ? Just saying there are options to a .35 Epps with over the counter ammo.

I had not thought about that. Thanks.

Right now, partly because some here said this rifle might still have a life as it is, and I just don't have the money, rechambering it is not an imminent project. I might sell it to someone who has more interest than myself in these old warhorses or just use it after gunsmith inspection. Not sure.

 

[boom boom]

You realize the bolt face of the P14 is about the same as Magnum rifle cartridges, the length is plenty long, the strength is there too. It takes very little follower work to feed nicely and the bore would clean up at say .338 ? Just saying there are options to a .35 Epps with over the counter ammo.

Most common conversion of the P14 was to .300 Win Mag by rebarreling. The bolt face does not need much if any alteration for that. If you go new with a barrel, it will need to be square threaded and inlet for the bolt and extractor clearance. Other conversions often require reworking feed lips of the receiver and/or replacing the magazine with a handbuilt job or altering a 1917 Rifle magazine which can create feeding problems and stock alterations if using a cutdown military stock. The monkey workshop at Century sold converted p14's in .300 Win Mag as Centurion Sporters, I believe. Occasionally you will see these pop up from time to time on auction websites along with barrels and sporter stocks for these.

The 1917 was commonly converted to .308 Norma Mag. because the .300 Win Mag required more effort due to bolt face, magazine, and other issues. The 1917 and P14 receivers are close enough that a P14 bolt will seat in a 1917 but bolt faces, etc. are different as are the barrels. I think that someone played around with trying to see if the 1917 or mebbe the 1903 Springfield would feed and shoot with a flat faced barrel and they found that it would with alterations. The 1917 used a coned barrel like the Springfield and the p14 originally used a flat faced barrel but later p14 * (which are most of them) have new bolts and barrels and are inlet into the barrel face for clearance. Unaltered P14's without the * mark are rare.

 

[illinoisburt]

Any updates?

 

[Frostbite]

Yes. I went to the city today and the guys at the gun shop did not want it even if I gave it to them; seriously, I asked $0.00 and they refused. That is sad, I had hoped for a second (third?) life for that one. The guy I dealt with said this rifle was not worth the effort to register it. He also said it would have been worth $1,000.00 as it was (rusty and all) if the stock had not been cut, referring to a collector market. Sigh.

I did trade my Browning Buckmark Sporter approximately twelve years old, but in excellent condition, as in mint looking but fired a few (somewhere between three and five, I guess) thousand rounds, for a brand new CZ 455 Standard. They ran a special on them and I had heard good things about those. For sure, it will be easier to clean!!! Total cost of the transaction: $80 for an additional metallic ten rounder magazine.

They also repaired my vintage Cooey for free by adding a retrainer pin on the brass part of the tube magazine (don't know that part's name); I had lost the original somehow and ran it with a paperclip. It worked, but did not look very good; the best fitting one I had found was purple. Good shop, great people!

 

[mustanger98]

Yes. I went to the city today and the guys at the gun shop did not want it even if I gave it to them; seriously, I asked $0.00 and they refused. That is sad, I had hoped for a second (third?) life for that one. The guy I dealt with said this rifle was not worth the effort to register it. He also said it would have been worth $1,000.00 as it was (rusty and all) if the stock had not been cut, referring to a collector market. Sigh.

.... Good shop, great people!

My take on this... it's just not their kind of rifle. To say it's only a collector piece... maybe a museum piece... is, IMO, a crock. I'm not saying they're not good people, but I disagree with their opinion.

 

[Frostbite]

They might be misinformed, but I seriously doubt they would be malicious; then again, I am naive.

It is the very best gun shop around. I don't want to derail (again!), but l'll just reiterate that the Québec gun culture is quite different from USA's. You know, as when someone says a neighbor's kid is different.

I will not say bad things about my home, I will not say bad things about my people, but I will say we are different!

 

[HB]

From a business standpoint they didn’t want to insult you with an offer. In the US something like that would sell for less than $200. To make money on it, and have it for sit for months, they’d have to buy for $25.

Doesn’t mean it wouldnt make for a bad hunting rifle but not worth much.

 

[illinoisburt]

Yes. I went to the city today and the guys at the gun shop did not want it even if I gave it to them; seriously, I asked $0.00 and they refused. That is sad, I had hoped for a second (third?) life for that one. The guy I dealt with said this rifle was not worth the effort to register it.

I think it's an honest reflection of their clientele. I have no idea what it costs to register, but assuming the gun just needs a good bore cleaning and functions in its current form who is likely to buy it? Probably not a lot of folks in the big cities want a generic iron sighted hunting rifle. Not pretty, definitely not new or modern, and likely a softball group shooter. That certainly doesn't make it bad, just not very merchantable. These things were sporterized decades ago because people wanted to hunt and could not afford to lay out the money for a new commercial grade sporter. These days plain vanilla bolt hunting rifles are cheap, realiable, and accurate. Alas that put very low cash value on the gun and the registration policies are doing exactly what their drafters hoped to acheive - force guns out of circulation due to costs and regulatory burdens.

Are there any specific rules against selling or gifting to someone out of provence? There might be a good home somewhere without the red tape.

 

[Maj Dad]

I will be brief.

You are absolutely right... and wrong!

The federal (Canada) unrestricted firearms, or long guns, to speak simply (understand traditional, old school, hunting type rifles and shotguns and not too evil looking target rifles such as the P14 for example, with less than 10 shots capacity (center fire) or less than 5 shots capacity if semi automatic) registry has been abolished, but a new registry is now in place in Québec (provincial or state equivalent government level if you prefer) for these unrestricted firearms in order to replace the federal long gun registry, which had already cost more than $2 000 000 000.00 in Canadian tax dollars.

I guess you could compare Québec's situation in Canada to California in the U.S.A. (on a variety of subjects, actually).

A majority of the media and politicians in Québec province believe it makes our world safer to register all guns. The anti-guns lobby is very powerful in Québec, including its most extremist proponents, even if they are most of the time trying to be subtle if not discrete. We live in a parliamentary democracy, so these groups (lobbies, media, elected politicians) decide the laws we must obey.

Also, it is worth noting that both the restricted and prohibited classes of guns are still mandatorily registered in all of Canada. Some long guns are part of these subcategories (think ARs and variants), which also include all handguns used in street violence, especially in Toronto, where innocent victims were found dead in the crossfires between gangs, some using, I must guess, registered handguns.

In the news, recently, the said handguns have been blamed for an increase of the gangs violence in Toronto (Ontario). In Montréal (Québec, ethnocentric majority of the population), when gangs shoot at each other, the media says gang related violence is rising.

We rarely if ever hear such other reasonings screaming that gun related violence comes from improper or inadequate education, unfair wealth distribution or ethnic and social groups competition, even less from people dealing with severe mental health issues (because they would have to be treated). So, instead of educating the masses and feeding poor people, learning to everybody peaceful conflict resolution and proper and safe firearms use, our government prefers to regulate firearms and ammunition commerce, ownership, usage, transportation and stocking.

An interesting parallel could be established with another product recently legalized in Canada for which consumption right is now raised to age 21 in Québec only, where legal majority is 18. Our Premier explains on TV while I am typing this that he expects teenagers will not buy said product from criminals (as they always have been) because they won't be allowed to buy it from the state operated stores. Yes, our citizens elected this guy as our Premier. Democracy at its best, once again: out of three bad and one dangerous choice, we the people chose the least intelligent leader, secretly hoping he should hopefully be less able to implement his equivalent agenda.

Put simply, because I want to obey the present law in my province of residence, I am registering all my firearms, including my muzzleloader; yes, they are firearms in Canada, as opposed to primitive weapons in the U.S.A. if memory serves me right.

More closely related to my OP, I have not forgotten about the request for some more pictures of the marks on my P14, but I have been busy with my son's pediatric cardiologist and geneticist, whom we see for free (after some waiting time). Parking is $25, though. Québec is kind of a socialist democratic state, I guess. We have the most beautiful women on earth and a brand new gun registry, cheers!

Hope this answers your question, I did my best. Good night. More pictures still to come.

Frostbite, s'il vous plaît excusez-moi, mais je pense que la citation de Boufflers devrait être "son" au lieu de "sont".
Cordialment,
George J.

 

[Random 8]

You're not kidding, that one is pretty rough. Seen it's share of abuse, but also looks like a lot of honest wear on the stock and metal before somebody put it away wet. As others have suggested, I would give the bore a good cleaning and see how it shoots. You may wish to remotely trigger the first round with the rifle clamped in a vice just in case. You might be surprised. I have an M17 sporter that was a gunsmith job, possibly a Bannerman, from a long time ago. Wears a goofy custom stock with a recoil pad that ceased production prior to WWII. It probably looked like yours on the outside before somebody cleaned off the rust (and the blueing). It shoots quite serviceably for hunting, despite being off the chart with .30 cal chamber and muzzle gauges and showing visible pitting on the lands. It will hold inside of 2" at 100 yards after some treatment with JB valve grinding compound and a patch.

I think some of these rifles that were sporterized a long time ago have a unique history and charm that is worth keeping. If I had to guess, I'd say yours has been on a lot of moose or caribou hunts. I'd take some burlap and diesel to the rust. Thorough scrubbing will thusly remove the active rust. Do the same with the bore, tight fitting patch soaked in diesel, kero or Hoppes #9. Do have the chamber and headspace checked. If it's strictly a wall hanger after that light work, cherish it as such, or see if some military re-enactors might be interested in a donation.

I don't think your gunshop is too far out of line. I would like to have it, but wouldn't pay a lot. I would consider taking a chance at it being a decent shooter and a parts gun for a future restoration if the price was right, really right.

 

[LRDGCO]

35/303 aka 35 Territorial, aka 35Epps. Grand old Canadian wildcat for just this purpose. It should be the 303 necked up to .358 and nothing else, but I believe the 35 Epps employed an improved shoulder. Can't be certain of that.

If you can ship it back and forth across the border, Jesse Occumpagh is the man to do it, JES Rebore.

 

[Slamfire]

I would never recommend reboring or rechambering an old military rifle barrel. The gunsmith Howe warns in his book about chambering the things for 300 H&H magnum, stating P17 barrels were made of inferior materials and had blown after being chambered in the larger cartridges. And, reboring removes material. Removing material from an old barrel, made out of inferior materials, and one that has an unknown number of rounds through it, is a good way to loose a hand through a barrel burst. Barrels are pressure vessels, they were not made for an infinite number of pressure cycles, and wartime barrels were made under the philosophy of "get it out the door". There were no expectations of long term use.

This is a 1950's conversion of a M1917 action into a 270 Win sporter rifle.





It is not as accurate as a modern 270 Win,but I am not going to spend the money to have it sent to someone to check receiver face squareness, lug squareness, and bolt face squareness. Cartridges come out of the chamber with a little run out, so I know things are not perfectly in line. I really doubt the gunsmith trued the action, lugs, or bolt face. And, if he had, in today's world, that is going to cost a couple hundred dollars. Gunsmith time is not cheap. A new barrel is about $300.00 and the rebarrel job is about $300. You can buy a pretty good new rifle and scope for just the cost of having one of these antiques re barreled with a new barrel. The, add the cost of milling the rear sight wings down, so you don't need a ladder to stand on, to look through the scope. A new stock, glass bedding sight bases, bluing, etc adds up. You will easily have $800 to $1000 in some old action that will only be interesting to someone who will offer you $200 for it when you decide to sell it.

Ain't I the cheerful person, just bubbling with optimism?

 

[eastbank]

clean it up and have headspace checked, if good shoot it and see if it has hunting accuracy(2-4" groups at 100 yards). I load .303 british in a 1943 long branch with a ex four groove barrel and with a little work with loads and resizing it will shoot 2" groups or better on a good day in original military condition. your rifle would make a good loaner-foul weather rifle.

 

[boom boom]

Yes. I went to the city today and the guys at the gun shop did not want it even if I gave it to them; seriously, I asked $0.00 and they refused. That is sad, I had hoped for a second (third?) life for that one. The guy I dealt with said this rifle was not worth the effort to register it. He also said it would have been worth $1,000.00 as it was (rusty and all) if the stock had not been cut, referring to a collector market. Sigh.

I did trade my Browning Buckmark Sporter approximately twelve years old, but in excellent condition, as in mint looking but fired a few (somewhere between three and five, I guess) thousand rounds, for a brand new CZ 455 Standard. They ran a special on them and I had heard good things about those. For sure, it will be easier to clean!!! Total cost of the transaction: $80 for an additional metallic ten rounder magazine.

They also repaired my vintage Cooey for free by adding a retrainer pin on the brass part of the tube magazine (don't know that part's name); I had lost the original somehow and ran it with a paperclip. It worked, but did not look very good; the best fitting one I had found was purple. Good shop, great people!

The simplest answer if that is what it takes is to get a P14 stock--there are still a few uncut ones scattered around, usually of Indian origin used for trainers. These usually have a circular hole where the Indians demilled them by drilling through the barrel chamber but might have already been fixed. The awful paint used in India to mark these comes off easily with mineral spirits as does the smelly cosmolene. What is left is often quite a serviceable stock, albeit bunged up a bit. If you go to Gunboards or milsurps.com forum, if you ask, there may be someone in Canada that also makes replica stocks. For used ones, try ebay Canada or the U.S. version as there are usually a few P14 stocks floating around and the barrel bands etc. are pretty cheap if you do not mind DP on them. Occasionally they show up at Numrich which I think still sends some items to Canada. BTW, the 1917 U.S. barrel bands, the buttplate, stock screws, and sling attachments are virtually identical to the P14 with perhaps a bit of fitting. There is a difference in the sight ladders, as you would expect, and the ejector box including the spring on the receiver, but generally parts can be interchangeable.

The other possibility is to part the rifle out depending on Canadian federal and your province's laws. In the U.S., all parts other than the serialized receiver in old bolt actions are not considered firearms and may be sold and traded without problems (leaving aside any hi cap magazines). There is quite an active desire for parts rifles as donors to restore other rifles and some parts houses such as Marstar's if they are still around or Epps might be interested in the rifle for those purposes.

 

[kBob]

Well since nobody else jumped on it.....

Yes the P14 is "overbuilt" for .303 Brit.....because it was originally designed as the P13 as in (Pattern of 1913). Because of Brit experience against the 7mm Mauser with the .303 (gee sort of like US experience against the 7x57 with .30-40 Krag) the UK was looking at a whole new weapons system based on essentially a streached and sort of magnumized 7 mm Mauser, think a .30-06 necked down to 7mm. This would give them a much flatter shooting at long range cartridge of rimless design that might work better in Machine guns and such of the future.

Then came 1914 and there was no time to change horses in mid stream. Thus that long heavy receiver meant for a long high pressure cartridge could be easily adapted to shorter and less powerful rounds like the .303 in 1914 and easily adapted to the very similar to what it was originally designed for .30-06 in 1917.

Wish I had one of either P14 or M1917 rifles and that fabulous sword bayonet that was also the standard on our Trench Shotguns for decades.

-kBob

 

[Frostbite]

Are there any specific rules against selling or gifting to someone out of provence? There might be a good home somewhere without the red tape.

I know I can buy firearms in Canada outside Québec from retail; I am pretty sure I could sell directly to someone the other way around, but would check with the registry people how to proceed first, because that rifle wouldn't have to be registered outside Québec since there is no such registry there.

For now, I just keep it. Thorough cleaning to come. Will try to remove as much rust as I can from it.