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.308/7.62x51 for home defense?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by SpeedAKL, Mar 24, 2010.

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  1. SpeedAKL

    SpeedAKL Member

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    There have been many excellent .308 AR-type carbines released to the public recently (DPMS AP4, LWRC REPR, Armalite AR-10 variants, Fulton Armory Titan, KAC SR-25 EM, POF 308, etc etc), in addition to the PTR-91, FAL, M1A, Saiga .308, etc. Given their relative portability, semi-auto fire, and controllable recoil I can understand why they would be used as a HD weapon. Using FMJ would obivously have major over-penetration issues, but with controlled-expansion or soft-point bullets it would have tremendous stopping power.

    Would you ever use such a weapon for HD purposes?
     
  2. C-grunt

    C-grunt Member

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    Hornady makes a 110 grain TAp round that is supposed to be devastating and has little penetration.
     
  3. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Second the Hornady TAP 110gr. Excellent choice for something like this. Even though others will be along shortly to tell you how bad the .308 is for self defense I would argue that it's more about proper load selection than the caliber.
     
  4. ny32182

    ny32182 Member

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    .308 is over the line where I would really start to worry about over-penetration, so... no. Seems like a lot of everything (blast, recoil, energy) for across the room distances.
     
  5. TheHighRoadDude

    TheHighRoadDude Member

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    Unless you live in the wide open country and are worried about having to pop shots out of a window or something, why not a good ole Remmy 870?
     
  6. DMK

    DMK Member

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    I like the 155gr TAP myself. The 110gr seems to be a little shallow.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Too much power for home defense use, even with varmint loads like the 110 grain TAP.
    Muzzle blast inside a room or hallway will peel the paint off the walls and blind & deafen you.

    Besides that, all the AR-10 platform guns I am aware off are just plain Huge & Heavy in comparison to the short & light AR-15 carbines. That's why the M4 type carbines have become the most popular SWAT Team weapon in America over the years.

    If .308 AR-10's offered any advantage at all, SWAT would be using them instead.
    But they aren't.

    rc
     
  8. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    As will an indoor shot from many firearms.

    Suppressors, aisle 6 :)
     
  9. Z-Michigan

    Z-Michigan Member

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    It depends.

    Where do you live? What are the overpenetration risks? If you're in a city or typical suburbia, I think it's right out, even with the reduced penetration loads like 110gr TAP. Of course, a .223 is an iffy proposition in those settings as well.

    What do you practice with? If you've been shooting an M14/M1A since 1960 and know it backwards and forwards, maybe it's a good choice for you. If you mostly practice with a .223 or something other than your .308 carbine, then the .308 carbine is probably not the best choice.

    What threats are you concerned about? In brown bear or mountain lion country, the .308 may be quite useful. Against two legged threats, most people would be happy with a .223 (let's not reopen that tired discussion).
     
  10. mothermopar

    mothermopar Member

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    Can it be used? Obviously. Is it the ideal choice? Not so much.

    THE best home defense combo is a 12 gauge (pick your weapon) with 00 buckshot. Nothing else really comes close.

    Given that, I'd grab a slingshot if it was the only weapon available!

    I'd worry less about muzzle blast, etc. than I would about potential overpenetration. I say potential because its not a given that you'll hit center mass.

    Get a decent soft point bullet of moderate weight (light weight ones may not penetrate enough) and have at it. That's what I say! LOL
     
  11. W L Johnson

    W L Johnson Member

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    One word, Loud
    I have both 16" and 20" AR-10's and I wouldn't want to be anywhere near the 16" indoors.
     
  12. jobu07

    jobu07 Member

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    I think running a carbine course that utilizes an indoor shoothouse with a .308 AR-10 would be interesting and a good way to see how it handles in those situations. Especially with your ears on.

    Honestly, touching one off indoors... Realistically? Is there much difference between a .357 and a 7.62? I think you'd notice the difference more with ears on than off. You'll be ringing afterwards no matter what.
     
  13. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    I guess that explains why LE agencies around the world are dropping the shotgun in favor of the carbine?

    The shotgun is a great home defense weapon, but to say that it's so superior nothing else comes close is quite untrue.

    00 Buckshot may be a very poor choice as well if you have interior wall penetration concerns.


    As for noise levels, that's bad no matter what you do unless you suppress the firearm. Here are some sample noise levels, they are all bad:

    .223, 55GR. Commercial load 18 _" barrel 155.5dB
    .243 in 22" barrel 155.9dB
    .30-30 in 20" barrel 156.0dB
    7mm Magnum in 20" barrel 157.5dB
    .308 in 24" barrel 156.2dB
    .25 ACP 155.0 dB
    .32 LONG 152.4 dB
    .32 ACP 153.5 dB
    .380 157.7 dB
    9mm 159.8 dB
    .38 S&W 153.5 dB
    .38 Spl 156.3 dB
    .357 Magnum 164.3 dB
    .41 Magnum 163.2 dB
    .44 Spl 155.9 dB
    .45 ACP 157.0 dB
    .45 COLT 154.7 dB
    12 Gauge 28" barrel 151.50dB
    26" barrel 156.10dB
    18 " barrel 161.50dB
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2010
  14. Strahley

    Strahley Member

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    No way. 9mm, .45 ACP, or 12ga (no slugs!) for home defense for me
     
  15. Hizzie

    Hizzie Member

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    Another vote for the TAP round. Keep a set of Pro-Ears or other electronic muffs next to the bed just in case of a bump in the night. The enhanced hearing will help give you an advantage as well as protect your ears.
     
  16. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Maybe the bad guy will give you a time-out to allow you to get the Pro-Ears on, turned on, and volume adjusted properly on each side too??

    If you happen to have a dead battery maybe he can re-schedule his home invasion for a later time too?

    rc
     
  17. ktn65

    ktn65 Member

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    Yikes! :eek: They all look rather bad!

    Where did you get that data?
     
  18. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    No idea of the accuracy of that, I just pulled it from a site I googled. I saw several places with similar data from Google, what struck me was that they were all pretty close to the same from a pure volume level.
     
  19. 1KPerDay

    1KPerDay Member

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    No way a .25 ACP is as loud as a .308. At least for anyone as far away as the shooter. :scrutiny:
     
  20. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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  21. Mp7

    Mp7 Member

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    interesting. Hope this thread stays rational.
    i´m completely with RC, so far.
    HD weapons would be revolvers or glocks for me.
    and 12g pumps. ( and u can have slugs and sabots, too)

    SWAT is offense, with the advantage of knowing WHEN the battle starts.
    HD is defense, with the advantage of knowing the place.

    ... waking up .. grabbing someting, asessing the situation by hearing,
    and then react ...

    is two different worlds imho.

    gun fascination and tactical thoughts
    .... i understand.

    But a shotgun can be operated easily
    by you and others ...

    It´s a Family waking up/ responding .. not a SWAT team.

    ( of course in a Z-scenario ... Saiga308 would be sweet :) )

    cheers from here.
    Mp7
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2010
  22. Driftertank

    Driftertank Member

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    Fired from a 1.5" pocket pistol, I imagine it would be nearly as loud as a .308 fired from a hunting rifle. The character of the sound would be different, but from a pure decibelmeter standpoint, they're probably similar...
     
  23. mothermopar

    mothermopar Member

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    Texas...

    The reason some agencies are choosing carbines are various and have little to do with home defense.

    Defense would insinuate defending... quite the opposite of an offensive operation (executing a search warrant, for example). If one is hunkered down or slowly and methodically searching in a typical HD situation, it is quite a different scenario than a dynamic entry. Actually, it is EXTREMELY different.

    Different weapons for different purposes.

    If I'm defending a small space (a room, hallway, etc.), I want a 12 gauge with 00 buckshot (my Colt 1911 on the hip to boot). I can gather my family and while they are evacuating or what have you, I can hold the fort... more or less stationary... until my blue cavalry arrives. The purpose of HD is to defend, to protect your family... not go out searching for the threat; but rather, shielding your loved ones from the threat.

    If I'm performing a dynamic entry, then a smaller, easy to handle, lighter carbine is what I'd reach for. Something I can sling quickly to cuff a turd, and at the same time reach out and touch a longer distance threat.

    One is better suited for offensive purposes, the other, defensive.

    I work for one of the 10 largest LE agencies in the USA... we issue both 12 gauge 870's and carbines.

    Of course, this is just opinion. I've participated in countless entries, and the rationale for my statements are based on my training and experiences. To each their own, but I'm certain the top 'gun guys' would agree that the 12 gauge with 00 buck is the way to go for HD.
     
  24. DMK

    DMK Member

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    Actually, I would have a much easier time operating a rifle than a shotgun since I'm more familiar with the former and get a lot more trigger time with it.
     
  25. Sunray

    Sunray Member

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    "...major over-penetration issues..." Any .30 cal rifle cartridge has that, a 110 grain SP included. Mind you, it's the distance the bullet will travel after penetrating a typical house door that is the issue.
    "...explains why LE agencies around the world are dropping the shotgun in favor of the carbine..." Who? Not all 'beat cops' are issued a shotgun either.
     
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