.308 at 600 yards.. 168 or 175??

[Detritus]

just wondering if there was a concensus as to the best place to start bullet weight wise, for a .308 load for use at 600 and under?? the Sierra Match King seems to dominate ANY discussion i've come across, but there's a disagreement over whether teh 175 or the 168 is better.
thing is most of these discussions are folks shooting out to 800-1,000, and i simply don't need to reach THAT far (yet ).

any advice??

 

[El Rojo]

Buy a box of 100 each and try it out for yourself. Then whatever one you think works best, use those. I think 600 yards is just about the line where one starts performing better than the other. I don't know if you are going to get a solid answer. I would think that the 168s would work just fine at 600 yards and price might be a slight consideration.

 

[Steve Smith]

Based upon the advice given from a lot of old hand M1A shooters, the 175 is the way to go at 600.

 

[Black Snowman]

I 2nd the "try them both". I don't know what kind of rifle you have but there's enough variation from one gun to the next that experimentation is about the only sure way of knowing what will work for you. It's not only dependant on the rifle, the bullet, and the weights but also the type and amount of powder all effect the accuracy. To find out what's best for your particular gun can be a very long road indeed.

For me this is one of the attractions of handloading. The experimentation gives me something to do other than just watch holes apear in paper.

 

[kotengu]

Either one will do well, but you'll get a (very) little more forgiveness for missing wind conditions with the 175gr than the 168gr. Is it enough that you'll notice? It depends on how good you are.

By the time you get good enough to read wind to the point that you can discern a 7 grain difference in bullet weight, you can shoot both and see which one you prefer. Until then, trigger time with ANY quality ammo is more important than nit-picking which has the advantage. GET OUT THERE AND SHOOT!!




(and then figure out a way to get me off this silly computer and do the same )

 

[Steve Smith]

Not to argue, but there is more than weight involved with the difference of the two. That's like saying the 77 and 80 .223 Match Kings are just 3 grains different. Sure, that's the weight difference, but the bullet design is significantly different. What you see on the target are the results. Much less wind deflection and higher speed at the target (in turn decreasing the effect of wind). A look at the ballstic coefficient tables at www.sierrabullets.com tells part of the tale as well.

But I am not an expert.

 

[cookhj]

i've tried both, and the 168's seemed to work just fine for me. i never shot that many 175's at 600, but they did about as well as the 168's. it just depends on what your gun likes.

 

[kotengu]

No - you're right, Steve. I was just over-simplifying a little to encourage him to worry about shooting more first. Until you really get sight picture and trigger control down wind reading isn't even really worth worrying about (unless you're shooting an AR - jsut kidding), then - learn wind reading, and in some respects it might be argued that even a 155 might be best for learning the wind so you can really see it's effects.

Once you know it pretty well, switch to a 190gr so you don't have to worry about it

 

[Detritus]

thanks for the good info/advise guys.


Black Snowman "sort of" asked what breed of rifle i'm intending to use this in, so i will enlighten.

this thread, as will all the others i've post over the past few days (and a few from a little while back) relating to shooting at 600 yards. is meant to gather info and advise that will be used in teh building of a "minor project gun" (ie "get the parts have myself or gunsmith attach") based on a Savage 10FP with Accu-trigger, the barrel is 24" and has a 1in10 twist in it's .308 guise.


also are there bullet designs other than the SMK that you kind folks might recomend for trials in this gun??
and YES i fully intend to reload, can't imagine shooting for accuracy WITHOUT using handloads, and in a bolt gun neck sized reloads (a facet of gun stuff, where the "retentive" side of me gets to come out a play ).

 

[kotengu]

From what I've experienced (in my limited testing) and read, the Berger VLD's shoot a little better than the SMK's. However, they are a good deal more expensive, and once you get to a certain point you start to wonder if it's worth it. For example - will 1/2 MOA really be that much better than 3/4 MOA, and can you realize that difference in your shooting?

If money isn't an object, go with the Bergers. But if shooting the less expensive SMK means you get to shoot more, go with that - the SMK is by no means "bad" in any respects, and will usually get you under MOA.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Someone slap my hand if I am wrong here - but 1:10 lines up *better* with a 175 grn than a 168 grn (I am trying to remember the forumla for finger this out ......)


D - like K said - realistically - just work 'em up and start shooting - working on reading wind, mechanics of each shot, beathing and..... and.... and...

I like SMK 175's - one load, all ranges.

45.5 Varget, Fed GM, Win brass


YMMV

 

[Dave P]

also are there bullet designs other than the SMK that you kind folks might recomend for trials in this gun??


Nosler 168's are cheaper than the sierras, and many of us can't tell the difference in perormance.

 

[Steve Smith]

Nosler J4s are getting popular, and are cheaper than SMKs.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

its been awhile since I messed with .308 but did alot of across the corse matches back in to 80's and found these following things to be true.

I used a 1:10 twist kreiger on my m1a.
also shot this rifle in alot of matches out to 1,000 yards also.

most of us used 168's at 200 yards but started to really use 180's at 300 rapid and anything out beyound that.
now that the 175's are out and have become the norm at longer ranges I would think that if I started again with a m1a I would use 168's at 200 and 175's at 300 and 600.
now we also loaded the 180's at mag length for 300 rapids and loaded them long for single loading at 600, not sure if thats what they do now.
we also right before I quit in 93 were using 190's at 600 but do not know if that trend played out or not but seemed to work very well.
you need to watch your loads very carefully when using heavy bullets out of a gas gun like the m1a.
you should use what your rifle likes and go by that.
if you are just practicing ok but every slight gain pays off in a match as I will take the extra 1/4 moa at 600 everytime as that extra 1 1/2 inches in the wind always means alot at the end.

maybe I look at it a little differently but this is the comp board section and if a few extra dollars in ammo cost makes the difference over the long run between staying a master or becoming a high master is a given for me at least.

because believe me the difference is amazing between 96.5% and 97% not only in what it might cost you to get that extra couple of points and the mental part is really tough.

here's a example of my thinking on sunday's match.
first let me say it was raining at every stage and sometimes very heavy.
that made the light funny with a wierd wind also.

now first of all the rifle I shot needs a new barrel for good 600 yard scores I believe as its at the end of its life for anything past 300 yards. extreme low x count at 600 the last 500 rounds or so.
so thats a money thing like bullets it will cost me to fix that problem and I have under taken that step to fix it by the end of the year.

the mental part is the killer like the 3 eights I shot out of those 80 rounds or the one missed wind call at 300.
between those 10 points was the difference between the 770 I shot and the 780 I should of shot not counting what it cost at 600 if the barrel is actually not doing its part anymore.:banghead:

 

[SodaPop]

Based upon the advice given from a lot of old hand M1A shooters, the 175 is the way to go at 600.

Hands down, its the 175gr match kings.

At 500yds I've noticed a difference.