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.308 Battle Rifle

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by 7.62mm.ak47, Aug 5, 2013.

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  1. 7.62mm.ak47

    7.62mm.ak47 Member

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    How do PTR-91s stack up to the H&K-91s? How about DSA FALs? I've checked Falfiles and HKpro but the opinions vary a lot. Does anyone here have personal experience? I've heard DSA's quality has gone downhill recently with QC with their SA58s.
     
  2. avs11054

    avs11054 Member

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    Only have experience with a ptr 91. It is awesome, but personally, I like my ar10 way better
     
  3. stubbicatt

    stubbicatt Member

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    I have had good experience with my early, tight chamber, JLD manufactured PTR 91. It shoots very accurately. Mine is one of those which doesn't cycle well with tar sealed ammo.

    I understand that the recent GI or standard profile barreled rifles don't have issues with surplus ammunition.

    A lot of people like the FAL, I owned a FN FAL back in the 90s, and it was a very nice rifle, I just liked the G3 better. --That is truly a question of personal taste.
     
  4. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

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    If your budget will go there check out the FN SCAR17s. Designed for optics, totally ambidexterious, factory free floated barrel and fully adjustable stock.

    BSW
     
  5. bikemutt
    • Contributing Member

    bikemutt Member

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    Agreed.

    Other than the reciprocating charging handle (aka thumb whacker), it's about perfect.
     
  6. DammitBoy

    DammitBoy Member

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    I'm looking at the Sig Sauer 716 patrol, does anybody have any experience shooting it?
     
  7. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

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    Actually it's the reciprocating CH that makes it even better.

    1) Easier to tell what's going on w/o having to look in the ejection port. If I have a stoppage I can see the position of the CH in my peripheral vision. If the CH is all the way back, the bolt is locked open. If it's all the way forward, I have a FTFire, if it's in some whacky intermediate position, I have a FTFeed.
    2) To complete a reload all I have to do is nudge the CH slightly rear wards with my left hand, which has just completed stuffing a new mag in the magwell. The CH is a much bigger target and easier to hit with gross motion than the tiny ping pong paddle.
    3) The CH is dirt simple. It's a piece of plastic over molded steel that inserts directly into the BCG. It's not a rugged as a AK CH but, if you have to apply force to open the BCG it's much more robust than any non-reciprocating CH.

    And the CH is easily flipped to the other side of south paws.

    BSW
     
  8. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

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    I had a G3 clone by Springfield and as far as reliability it was top notch but accuracy compared to my Scout Squad or previous Standard or new M&P 10 there is just no comparison.
    I also like the hold open on last shot, and the ergonomics compared to those of the G3. Mags are cheap but overall with regards to the 308 I'm thinking that the AR platform is probably superior to all of them and there is a clear standard that is beginning to emerge.
    When that happens things will be even better.
     
  9. Robert

    Robert Moderator Staff Member

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    I like my FAL a lot but more and more I find myself looking at AR10 style rifles.
     
  10. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

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    What standard is that? Every manufacturer had their own specs with parts and frequently mags not being compatable.

    BSW
     
  11. fireside44

    fireside44 Member

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    Ptr-91/CETME mag release location fail.

    Superior for what? Accuracy, probably. Weight, doubtful. Extended field use, no way. Ease of maintenance, sorry. Optics mounting, yep. Sights, yep. Cost, no real advantage.

    I'd look for a STG-58, Argentine, or Imbel FAL built from a parts kit on a DSA or Coonan receiver by someone reputable whether it be a smith or a private individual. Check the FALfiles marketplace, some real deals go through there at times.
     
  12. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

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    That's my point, I think there is a pattern that is becoming prevalent at least with magazine interchangeability and I think the uppers are compatible as well, it seems the SR25/DPMS and now the S&W excluding the ambi features. Compatibility with PMags will be a driving force in the future development of the the 308 AR IMO.
    I am fairly new to the 308 AR's but the mag availability, cost and quality were a deciding factor.
     
  13. X-Rap

    X-Rap Member

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    Yes, accuracy
    probably equal at least and possibly less weight
    extended field use? that's to be determined there are some in use now that will aid in that judgement
    ease of maintenance? what other 308 out there is rebuild able in the field by those with simple knowledge of tools and the system?
    Optics, sights, yep
    Having shot the G3 and FAL I will give the ergonomics to the AR as well, that is quite subjective but given the number of AR15/M16 users in America today the transition to the larger platform will be much simpler than that of the other two.
    I know it is blasphemous but the M14/M1A isn't even in the same league using the criteria above.
    How the larger platform will hold up over time is an unknown but it seems to be beefed up in the right places and considering the success and longevity of it's little brother I don't doubt it to do well on the range, in the hunting fields and on the battlefield.
     
  14. 7.62mm.ak47

    7.62mm.ak47 Member

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    Thanks for the replies. I'm only looking at getting a G3 clone or FAL at the moment though. So would getting a PTR be just about the same construction-wise as an HK91? I don't want to spend over $1k and have a subpar rifle I guess.
     
  15. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

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    $1000 is a pretty tight budget for a self loading 7.62 NATO rifle that's halfway decent.

    Why 7.62 NATO? What are you planning on doing with the rifle?

    Another factor is magazines and ammo. Price both before you commit.

    BSW
     
  16. splithoof

    splithoof Member

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    As someone who has used the G3/91 format and likes it, I have to acknowledge that it is outdated, and more ergonomic designs exist. The FN SCAR comes to mind. From a manufacturing standpoint, the HK pattern is the closest thing to a disposable rifle I have used with the exception of the AK platform. Both those designs were made to be ultra cheap to produce. That ultra cheap aspect likely contributes to reliability.
     
  17. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    This subject is quite common here.

    I find the FAL to be far superior to the PTR91 in nearly every way except the cheap mags for the PTR91.
     
  18. orangeninja

    orangeninja Member

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    The G3/91 design can be scoped or have optics mounted (if you don't cheap out) if you do something like get an HK claw, you have one that goes on and off without losing zero (which is super nice).

    Other benefits:

    The mags are cheap...super cheap. In fact I don't know of any magazines for a battle rifle that are cheaper.

    It has AK47 like reliability (a rare few tight chamber ones the exceptions).

    Mine (which is a JLD type) is capable of 1 MOA or less with the appropriate ammo.

    It will eat cheap Wolf ammo all day long.

    Parts for it are readily available, cheap, and easy to work with.

    It's a simple, battle proven design that hasn't changed much since inception.

    The ARs? With the exception of accuracy and a removable scope, lose on all of the above points (but ARs have slightly better ergonomics, though you will quickly adjust to the G3 ergos and it becomes a non-issue. It’s slightly nose heavy…like an AR that’s been “pimped”.

    I disagree that the design is obsolete any more than a AR15 or AK47 to say nothing of the M1A (which is what I originally was in the market for before stumbling upon this).

    Anyhow YMMV but I have been intrigued by the no nonsense, barebones, GI PTR recently with a 16 inch barrel (mine is 18).
     
  19. FuzzyBunny

    FuzzyBunny Member

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    I have HKs but I hear the newer 12 flute PTR rifles are nice too. My HKs were passed down to me so, yea for me! If I had to buy one in 7.65x51 I think I would go with a PTR, BUT I have not shot the scars.

    Find what you like and go with it and buy spare springs and such now as they are cheaper now than later. Some hate the 91 format and others love it so pick the one you can shoot the best with.

    Avoid the .223 HK93 as mags are expensive as heck when you can find them.

    Oh, get a HK or lula mag loader if you get a PTR or any 308.

    Happy hunting
     
  20. Arizona_Mike

    Arizona_Mike Member

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    I vote for the S&W M&P10. Love mine.

    Mike
     
  21. 7.62mm.ak47

    7.62mm.ak47 Member

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    Well I guess my budget would be like $1300 which would cover a PTR and some FALS. So is the PTR the same quality wise as the H&K? How do the SA58s compare to other FALs?
     
  22. Willie Sutton

    Willie Sutton Member

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    Based on currently owning both HK91's and a PTR, they are interchangable as far as quality, fit, and finish are concerned. They are a hard recoiling, too short in the butt-length, hard on brass, dead-nuts reliable rifle of adequate but not superlative accuracy. They are "nothing special", just another stamped sheet metal rifle. They were designed to be the cheapest way to manufacture a full sized cartridge rifle, as an industrial object for production. They are great at what they do, and I would take either with equal alacrity if I needed to rely on a rifle of this design. Pick the least expensive one of the two, meaning that you can leave the HK built ones for the collectors and fan-boys.

    FAL's come in 2 flavors: Those assembled in a FN or licensed by FN factory ab-initio, and those put together by "Bubba on his own without FN technical support", which can range from literally Bubba in his garage to a very well established specialy botique shop who specializes in FAL's. Those "kit guns" can be built from well worn surplus parts, or from new parts, or from a mix of parts. Know what? With very few exceptions, as shooters... they are all more or less the same. They will all likely be reliable, rugged, durable rifles that are quite frankly a LOT more pleasant to shoot than a HK design.

    All in all the FAL is going to be a lot softer shooting rifle, with far better ergonomics.


    To frame my opinion, I have had HK91's since about 1979, and I bought my first FAL back when Browning imported them from Belgium. I have a *real* AR-10 as well, one of the Dutch manufactured, "Real" Armalite Licensed ones with the cocking ring under the carry handle. I do like it a lot... far better than the so-called "AR-10's" that are not even close, but are rather just scaled up AR-15's. To round it out, I have M1A's, original Beretta BM-59's, and Garands, both original length and "Tanker", as well as a collection of FN-49's and other "interesting" rifles, such as one of the new-build FG-42's. All in all... for a full size cartridge rifle... the FAL is the best of the pack. The BM-59 is *lovely* but try getting one... and I hate to say it, but the FG-42 is so far ahead of any of the others that it absolutely blows my mind that these were not put into series production post-war for use right up to today.



    FAL is a beautiful heavy-metal classic. You can't really go wrong with any of them. Pick one and enjoy.

    G-3 (HK91, etc) is a stamped el-cheapo dispose-a-rifle, to be harshly truthful. They work great. But..


    You choose.



    Willie


    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2013
  23. C-grunt

    C-grunt Member

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    My favorite of all the old battle rifles has been the FAL and the M14/M1A. If I had to choose between them it would be the FAL.

    However now I would choose the SCAR hands down. Having shot a real Mk17 SCAR with the 13.x inch barrel and auto switch, I am seriously downing the Koolaide. It is a really really good battle rifle.
     
  24. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    AR pattern is still king of the hill in my book. Ergonomics, modularity, accuracy.

    FAL is a close second, but reloads are about a zillion times slower.

    G3 pattern is a decent weapon, but the ergos fail compared to others, they are the most abusive recoil-wise, and they destroy brass.

    M1A is a good rifle, but suffers from the same slow reloads as the FAL.

    I am NOT a fan of the SCAR. I would take a decent rendering of the aforementioned rifles over the 17 every day and twice on Sunday.

    No experience yet with the RFB, but I think it is a promising design.

    I have an Armalite AR-10A2 carbine and a DSA para carbine, as well as a C91. All three are superbly reliable. The AR-10 has not had a single hiccup since I started using gen II mags, and it is about a 1.3 MOA rifle (5 shot 100 yard groups). The FAL runs 100% with good mags, is pretty gentle, and runs about 1.75 MOA. The C91 has also had but a few hiccups, and has produced groups as small as .5 MOA, but averages about 1.5-2.0. It is still my least favorite, on account of ergonomics and recoil impulse.

    [​IMG]

    A later pic of the FAL (same today, except I added a cheek pad)

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    I'd be hard pressed deciding between the AR-10 and FAL if I could only keep one, but the AR-10 would win out (just barely). I love the FAL, but the AR-10 is a little more accurate, a little softer shooting, and has superior controls placement & manipulation.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2013
  25. MistWolf

    MistWolf Member

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    Mag changes aren't any slower with a FAL than they are with an AR. Hit the FAL mag release with the trigger finger and the mag falls free. The controls of the AR AR are a little easier to use and the AR is also easier to mount an optic.

    As far as recoil goes, my Para is much softer shooting than my M&P-10 but I suspect the Battlecomp compensater has much to do with that
    [​IMG]
     
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