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.308 more than 30-06?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by nachosgrande, Dec 3, 2008.

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  1. nachosgrande

    nachosgrande Member

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    Was wandering through Walmart yesterday and saw they carry the Mossberg ATR 100 in 30-06 for $249. Not bad, almost cheap enough to be an impulse purchase, also the wife was in a good mood and gave me the go ahead. I ask if they carry it in .308 and they said they could order it for me for $300. Any idea why the big price discrepancy? If anything, I though the 06 would be more.
     
  2. Decker

    Decker Member

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    My guess would be walmart ordered 10000 of them in 06 and got a price reduction, but has to order a single one in 308............
     
  3. Sinixstar

    Sinixstar member

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    Might just be because they have to order it.
     
  4. d2wing

    d2wing Member

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    The 30-06 is more popular. More people will chose the 30-06 so they are in stock. The .308 is less apt to stocked or shipped as part of a larger shipment or production run therefore slightly more expensive on a economy of scale. The .308 is a shortened version of the 06. The 06 is available in more cartridges and has more power. Why buy less when you could buy more cheaper. Some people prefer the .308 for various reasons, but it would be real hard to tell the difference in a hunting rifle. What a great country, you get a choice and neither is wrong, both are great.
     
  5. 24kshooter

    24kshooter Member

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    Sorry while the 30:06 is a fine cartridge with an over 100 year history it is less popular than the 308WIN in today's marketplace. The way Walmart merchandises firearms is to pick up slow selling - seconds - or promotional items from the mfg. at cut rates and then offer the consumer a better buy on a the firearm. Special order and more popular caliber equals more money you are going to have to pay.
     
  6. gbran

    gbran Member

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    Last year I went to my local gun store and fondled a hangun in the case. It was nice to see it in real life and actually handle it. I came back next week to buy it, but it was gone. They said they could order me one, but the price they quoted was about $75 more.
     
  7. Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

    Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow member

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    I do not believe that that is even close to being true. The .30-06 is wildly popular, and is one of the few calibers ALWAYS offered by every rifle manuf. in every conceivable long action version of their rifles. The .308 is far far less popular overall, among the general gun buying public, though it is more popular with the "sniper/tactical/precision" crowd. I'd bet that there are 6 or 7 rifles in .30-06 for every rifle sold in .308. At least 3 to 1 bare minimum. However, I could be wrong. :p :)

    Mr. d2wing nailed it above, +1.
     
  8. woof

    woof Member

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    There might be more rifles out there in 06 but I would bet more are sold in 08 each year. I would also be that more 08 ammo is sold.
     
  9. Action_Can_Do

    Action_Can_Do Member

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    I know for a fact that companies that sell reloading dies sell far more for 30-06 than 308.
     
  10. Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

    Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow member

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    I serioulsly doubt it, but let's have a look-see:


    OK, for starters, here are the Remington models offered in .30-06 but not in .308:
    1. 700 Alaskan Ti
    2. 700 BDL
    3. 700 CDL (The most popular Remington)
    4. 700 CDL - SF
    5. 700 CDL - Boone & Crockett
    6. 700 Mountain LSS
    7. 700 SPS Buckmasters Edition
    8. 700 SPS DM
    9. 700 XCR (Second most popular Remington)

    Here are the Remington models offered in .308 but not .30-06:
    1. 700 VTR
    2. 700 XCR Compact Tactical
    3. 700 SPS Tactical
    4. 700 SPS Varmint
    5. 700 VLS
    6. 700 VSF
    7. R25
    8. Model 7

    All the rest are offered in either both calibers, or neither caliber. So that's 9 to 8, seemingly about a wash. But I'd bet that the hunting classes outsell the tactical and other short action classes on the order of 3 to 1 or 4 to 1, at least.

    Let's go to Winchester next:
    1. Model 70 Sporter Deluxe: .30-06 but not .308
    2. Model 70 Super grade: .30-06 but not .308
    The other Wins are either both calibers or neither. So that maker is 2 to zero on models

    Next, here are the Browning models offered in .30-06 but not in .308:
    1. A-bolt Composite Stalker
    2. A-bolt Eclipse Hunter with BOSS
    3. A-bolt Medallion
    4. A-bolt Medallion, Left Hand
    5. BAR Long Trac
    6. BAR Long Trac Stalker
    7. BAR Long Trac Left Hand
    8. BAR Long Trac MONBU

    Here are the Browning models offered in .308 but not .30-06:
    1. A-Bolt M1000 Eclipse
    2. A-Bolt Micro Hunter
    3. A-bolt Micro Hunter Left Hand
    4. A-bolt Mountain Ti
    5. A-bolt Stainless Hunter
    6. A-bolt Stainless M1000 Eclipse
    7. BAR Short Trac
    8. BAR Short Trac Stalker
    9. BAR Short Trac Left Hand
    10. BAR Short Trac MONBU

    All the rest are offered in either both calibers, or neither caliber.

    Next, Savage. Suffice it to say that I counted them carefully and there are: 24 models offered in .30-06 but not .308, but 29 models offered in .308 but not .30-06, so .308 Win "wins" from this maker.

    Next, Marlin. Again, I counted them carefully and there are: 2 models offered in .30-06 but not .308, and zero models offered in .308 but not .30-06, so .30-06 "wins" from this maker.

    Next, Mossberg. Again, I counted them carefully and there are: 14 models offered in .30-06 but not .308, and 7 models offered in .308 but not .30-06, so .30-06 "wins" from this maker. {Edit: Wait, no, on Mossberg, it's not 14 in 30-06 but not .308, it's 14 in .30-06 period, and 7 in .308 period, but the difference in model numbers still give it a 7 advantage here}.

    Next, Sako. Again, I counted them carefully and there are: 1 models offered in .30-06 but not .308, and zero models offered in .308 but not .30-06, so .30-06 "wins" from this maker.

    Next, Tikka. Again, I counted them carefully and there are: zero models offered in .30-06 but not .308, and 1 models offered in .308 but not .30-06, so .308 "wins" from this maker.

    Next, Weatherby. Again, I counted them carefully and there are: zero models offered in .30-06 but not .308, and 3 models offered in .308 but not .30-06, so .308 "wins" from this maker.

    Next, NEF / H&R. Again, I counted them carefully and there are: 3 models offered in .30-06 but not .308, and 2 models offered in .308 but not .30-06, so .30-06 "wins" from this maker.

    You get the idea. They are much closer than I had suspected, but the running totals so far are 63 models offered in .30-06 but not .308, but only 50 models offered in .308 but not .30-06 - you're gonna see about the same ratio as you go along to other manufacturers, since they make what sells best. I don't think there's any contest whatsoever in terms of actual number rifles sold, and ammo sold.

    And, keep in mind that the vast majority of these particular models which are offered in .308 but not .30-06 are the "Varmint" style models. I don't think there are nearly the number of varmint hunters as there are big game hunters (Bubbas who go out for deer season, and that's the extent of their hunting for the year). Yes, there are also some "tactical" models, but this is also a much smaller market than the big game hunters. Nothing to sneeze at, mind you, but much smaller.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2008
  11. Shawnee

    Shawnee member

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    I am convinced that IF 30/06 rifles and ammo are really the top sellers - it most definitely is not because it is truly the most popular.

    I think the sales figures quoted are most often the sales of new guns - and it is not at all valid to simply make the assumption that the "top gun' is there because all buyers know what they are buying and it is thus "the best" or the most truly popular.

    New product sales relies very heavily on "name recognition" (which is why we have advertising blitzes). Thompson's Water Seal is one of the highest selling products of that nature but it is also one of the poorest performers. It is a sales leader because the customer recognizes the name.

    Same thing applies tp the 30/06. Joe Newbie goes to the store and doesn't recognize 7x57 or 257 Roberts or 260 Remington - but he does recognize 30/06 and, of course, the meth-head sales girl says "Oh it's our best seller" and Presto - another new rifle sale gets logged into the 30/06 column - not because it is a "popular" caliber but because the buyer didn't have a clue..

    Wallworld and K-rip-off know this and so they stock mostly the caliber they can depend on their unsuspecting customers to recognize. And if they stock more of a caliber they are going to push more of that caliber out the door with sales and advertising. Not Rocket Science. Pretending those sales are due to earned-popularity is B.S., at best.

    I think a more accurate measure of any caliber's "popularity" is looking at how many you see on the "used" sale racks - in other words, how many people are ditching the caliber in favor of something else.

    And the leading caliber on the "used gun for sale" racks (barring EBR stuff) is the 30/06. And that is no surprise at all because pepople buy them, find out they are more recoil and blast and P.I.T.A. than necessary and they ditch them for more sensible calibers.

    It could be argued that the 30/06 has more rifles on the "used for sale" rack simply because they sell more new rifles - and that's partly true. But the number of used 30/06 rifles for sale is way out of proportion to just the new sales.

    Go on Gunbroker and plug in Remington 742 or 760 and look at the % that are 30/06. Ditto the .308 in the Win. 88 and Win. 100.

    Or compare the prices of Win. model 70s in 30/06 to the prices of the same rifle in . 243 or .264 or .270 - you'll see the 30/06s are not only much more commonly for sale, but are comparative giveaways.

    Or look at the prices of Remington 700s in 30/06 compared to the same rifle in .243 or .270.

    Or look at the prices of the old Savage 99s in .257 or .250 and compare them to Win. model 70s in 30/06.

    And think about it - of all the "classic" calibers that inflate the price of ANY rifle model - NONE of them is the 30/06.

    You'll pay extra for a .250 Sav., and a 257 Roberts, and a .38/55, and a .264 Win., and a .280 Rem., and a .284, and a .256 Win., and a .44/40, and a 6.5 Rem. and a .225 Win. - but you will NEVER, EVER have to pay more because a gun is chambered for the 30/06.

    The 30/06's false claim to popularity due to quailty is really a popularity based on convenient one-caliber marketing to consumers who don't know any better.

    And for all the crowing 30/06 fans do about how they need it for those 700-yd. shots at "once-in-a-lifetime" elk - go look at the poll about long shots and notice that the 30/06 is definitely NOT the caliber people are using for their long-range shooting.

    Though the .308 is not even close to being a hunter's Gift from Heaven, I would be willing to bet a lot of money that people keep their .308s, and keep using them longer than they do their 30/06s and that the 30/06 gets 10x more closet time than their .308. I would also bet .308s stay on the "used" rack much, much less time than the 30/06s do.


    That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

    :cool:
     
  12. Dave/hoff

    Dave/hoff Member

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    Since the thread has gone off on one the infamous HighRoad tangents, I'll add my 2¢ worth.

    My guess is that if you walk in to any isolated, backwoods, off-the-beaten-track, general store, you'll get your choice of ammo for any gun you own...so long as it's a 12 gauge, 30-aught-six, or thirty-thirty. These are the calibers that (probably) most people own.

    I agree with the opinion that the '06 is (still) more popular than the .308, and that's why they're cheaper.
     
  13. woof

    woof Member

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    When I said more rifles out there I did not mean new rifles and their chamberings, I meant actual rifles out there from '03s to present. It shouldn't be hard to contact a few ammo companies and find out which round has the highest annual sales figures. I'm betting .308 and I really doubt you can find a backwoods store that stocks 06 and not 08. Expand it to the mother cartridges whole family and 08 walks away with five progeny while 06 has what, .270 and obscure .35 Whelen and .25-06.
     
  14. elmerfudd

    elmerfudd Member

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    Oddly enough, I agree with most of that, except for the part about the .308 not being a gift from heaven. I really like the .308 quite a bit but I'm not quite so crazy about the 30-06. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me to have an inch longer receiver and the weight and scope mounting hassles that entails simply to shoot a cartridge with only minor performance gains over the .308.

    And yes, my 30-06 gets way more closet time than any of my .308's.
     
  15. Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

    Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow member

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    You have got to be joking. There are probably hundreds, if not thousands, of backwoods gas stations and mom & pop stores that stock .30-06 and .308 is nowhere to be seen, leastways around here....

    .30-06 is clearly the most popular NOW, although it's *margin* of popularity is decreasing. It was way way way more popular just 20-30 years ago. It probably outsells .308 in rifles by 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 now, but probably did 5 to 1, or 10 to 1 around 30 years ago.

    Shawnee, of course you make a good point, buy your entire "rant" misses the point that the meaning of "popular", by its very definition, is "what sells the most units"? and nothing more. It is irrelevant to the status as most popular as to WHY it is most popular with Joe Schmoe, be it ignorance, marketing, or any other reason. Unless you're trying to create a new definition of the word "popular". :p
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2008
  16. Shawnee

    Shawnee member

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    ""popular", by its very definition, is "what sells""


    Trouble with that is the 30/06-ers infer that its' so-called popularity is because it is the "best" or "most appropriate" or the most highly thought of hunting caliber for everything - and that is absolute Blarney.

    By the by - Who cares if you can buy 30/06 ammo at Victoria's Secret - it isn't necessary. .308 and .243 and .270 and 7mm/08 and 30/30 ammo is sold at 32,000,000 stores here. To boast that the 30/06 is "more available" because it is sold at 32,000,001 stores is the height of Silliness.

    :cool:

    P.S. You bought 6 guns in the last 6 weeks - how many are 30/06s ?

    ;)
     
  17. jpwilly

    jpwilly Member

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    I got my ATR in 30-06! I like the long action and the extra 100-200fps in most loads.
     
  18. elmerfudd

    elmerfudd Member

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    I'm not so sure about the cartridge sales part. One guy with an M1A, FAL or AR10 can go through as much ammo in a year as 100 box a year hunters. Most of the serious shooters I see at the range with 30-06's have a box of reloads sitting next to them and spend most of their time talking in between shots while the barrel cools. As far as hunting rifles go, I see more of a trend towards fast magnums.
     
  19. Shawnee

    Shawnee member

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    You make a good point, Elmaer, about the high quantities of ammo burned for formal target competitions. If it weren't for Skeet, the 28ga. would be in the same boat as the 16ga. today, and probably worse.

    And if we deduct sales to the military, the .308 and the 30/06 would probably not even make the Top Ten.

    :cool:
     
  20. nachosgrande

    nachosgrande Member

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    You guys just flooded me with waaay tooooo much info. I was hoping someone could just tell me it is or isn't worth the extra $50. From what I'm told the .308 is more accurate at longer ranges, but I couldn't take anything larger than deer with it. I'm also told the 30-06 will give me any game short of a brown bear, but with less accuracy at longer ranges. Any of this true?
     
  21. elmerfudd

    elmerfudd Member

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    I think they probably still would. There are just so many 30-06's out there and the .308 is popular in autoloaders which use a disproportionate number of cartridges relative to their numbers.

    My guess for most popular cartridge in terms of sheer numbers sold would have to be the .223/5.56 followed by the 7.62x39. Where I shoot it seems there is almost always someone at the range with either an AR, SKS or AK and they generally go through 100 rounds or more in a session.

    I also think these rounds are wildly under reported when it comes to sales data. Sales of Golden Tiger, Hotshot and surplus ammo are huge, but I doubt they are included at all.
     
  22. Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

    Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow member

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    Ya know, there *could* be ammo for sale somewhere inside Victoria's Secret, and I'd never notice, what with me ogling the skimpy neglige's.

    I dunno; it's a lot closer than I thought. None are .30-06s of my recent purchases, but I do have one in the safe! (What DID I buy in the last few months, Shawnee? A .243 win rifle, a .45 colt rifle, a 28 ga O/U, a .454 casull revolver, a 7.62x39 AK, a .45 cal ML, two .50 cal MLs, a 5.56x45 EBR, and that's it! - I think :) ).

    The .30-06 is in the minority however, but I found a great deal on a sporterized (nicely) US 1917 ($150). I don't think .30-06 is any BETTER than .308, just more popular in the strict sense of selling more guns. As for ammo, the .308 tactical guys may shoot enough extra ammo to make that one a horse race. Yes, if you also count into the total 7.62x51 surplus style ammo from the 7.62 EBR guys, then I think that wins in ammo sales (but that ain't ".308", technically). Look it doesn't matter, does it? - why am I obsessed with this - we're stompin on piss ants here - LOL! :D

    To answer the OPs question of "Is it worth an extra $50 for .308?" No, not unless you want to shoot off the shelf MATCH quality ammo in more varieties than .30-06; then yes it is. .308 has some great match loads in a nice variety.
     
  23. Frog48

    Frog48 Member

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    Speaking strictly for myself... Several years ago, I was in the market for a deer rifle. I looked at all the new, cool, whizbang calibers. But after much consideration, I settled on the .30-06 for these reasons:

    > It is available at every mom and pop store, bait shop, gas station, quick-e-mart, etc, whereas other calibers often are not. If I misplace a box of ammo on a hunting trip, I may be quite a hike from a decent gun shop or sporting goods store.

    > Theres nothing that other calibers can do that the .30-06 cant do, within the context of deer hunting.

    > Recoil from .30-06 is not as bad as people say. If/when its an issue, I can use Remington's "Managed Recoil" loads.
     
  24. jaholder1971

    jaholder1971 Member

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    +1.

    Better add .270 to that list, too.
     
  25. rust collector

    rust collector Member

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    Nachosgrande, caliber popularity is probably not all that relevant, although clearly fun to debate. In truth, numbers of cartridges sold is either closely guarded marketing data, or just a WAG because of all the non-SAAMI connected sources.

    I suspect that the price disparity was due to the 30-06 having been purchased on a special buy or the wholesale price of the rifle having increased since the '06 was stocked.

    If the 30-06 must be better than the 308 because of a few feet per second, the 300 win mag must be better yet. In truth, they're all a compromise, and both your choices would do a fine job for you. I like 308 because there is lots of good brass and loading data available. If you want to launch bullets bigger than 180 grains, the 30-06 will give a bit better performance. Beyond that, there's more heat than light
     
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