308 Semi-automatic

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Include the fact that todays M1A's are commercial guns and not milspec and I find no basis for that claim.
The M1A is made by the Springfield Armory. They are made with the same quality process as always. I don't see many of them or heard any reports of anyone with one out of spec so I don't know what your comment really means unless some armorer or gunsmith wannabe worked on one and screwed the carbine up.
The M1A is derived from the M14. Springfield Armory delivered the first M14 service rifles to the US Army in 1959. It served really well in Vietnam although it was big for MBR it became obvious its reliability. You can drag it though the mud and piss it clean and keep shooting, just like the AK. The M14 was phased out as standard issue by 1970 but it is still used today by many branches of the Military, and the preferred choice over anything else as Sniper and DMR. It has great effectiveness at long range. It is the preferred choice by many marines in Afghanistan over anything else.
You will not see any US or coalition forces sticking to the old FALs. They are not accurate and have a hard time with dust. Any old veteran from the Israeli army will tell you this.

just asking is a 308 Semi-automatic good for hunting
What you want is something accurate whatever that might be so if you are presented with a 600yards "opportunity of a lifetime" do not end up shooting it in the rear.
Again the Saiga 16" is extremely accurate, not the 21" that one is not.
Baseline is $550-$575. Mags are $37. I would say buy 3 or 4 for now. A nice 922r compliance conversion with the nice G2 trigger will cost you $180 more or less depending on options. This carbine is below MOA.

M1A is also a great. You will pay for a SOCOMI around 1,400-1,500 and the SOCOMII for around 1,800. Mags are plentiful and you can get good ones for $20 and even cheaper surplus.

Both systems need additional good mounts for regular optics if you want a scope. If you want to enjoy the range and a good hunt plan for a good scope. The M1A iron sights are superior to the AK but the AK can do ok too.

Here one Saiga .308 before and after conversion....

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Here one target. Here with a 1x7 Burris timberline with the simple yet awesome bullet drop comp with a few clicks between groups. LEt me know if you need more pics of this or FN, M1A or other systems...

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Added this with a few shots open sights too....
These were shot standing up with that grip-bipod supporting over a counter but w/o any sandbags or anything fancy.
I am retired now but I was trained as a marksman and sniper and take my time between shots but other than that there is nothing really huge and fancy about this system setup.
It is just plain and simple an accurate system so potentially anyone can do this with this nice carbine.

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Cheers,
E.
 
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The have 25 and 10 rounders. Surefire are great mags. Stay away for the originals as they are not cheaper and they do not count as a compliance part.
Once you add something to a original russian like the saigas you have to make sure it is 922r compliant. So you need to change a few things.
A few options are a USmade trigger group (Awesome improvement and needed anyway) the stock and handguards. (I keep the stock AR style), brake, magazines US made by surefire are awesome and they count as 3 compliance parts. You only need 5 compliance parts but not a bad idea to have a few more anyway.
The internals, cold hammer forged chrome lined barrels, trunion, bolt, piston, receiver that stays untouched as delivered by the russian AK plan in IZmash and with the same quality (mill spec) of all the other AK systems they provide to the military forces. Normally AKs are not that accurate but this .308 'shorty' was a pleasant surprise on this regard.
Specially for that kind of moola.

Cheers,
E.
 
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The Springfield Armory, Inc. (SAI) that makes the M1A is not the same company as the Springfield Armory that was the old GI weapons manufacturer. SAI just bought the name. The M1A uses a cast receiver, while the M-14 had a forged receiver. Early M1As were built with all USGI parts, but now they are all built with SAI's in-house parts, including the barrels, which are not chrome lined as per mil spec. Some receivers out of spec, which sometimes causes problems with scope mounting. SAI extractors sometimes cause problems too, and are frequently replaced with GI, especially on scoped rifles (sometimes the SAI extractor makes the brass hit the mount, especially on a low mount).

This doesn't mean they are bad rifles. On the contrary... I love mine. It is a lot of fun to shoot, and is quite accurate. Mine has been nothing but reliable. I do wish it had a CL barrel, though... I will probably end up replacing it soon. Even though they are not mil-spec, SAI's are still what I would consider a mid/high grade rifle. There really isn't any such thing as a low-end M-14, like there are with AR's... even the Chinese ones are pretty solid. And the upper end ones, like 7.62mm Firearms, SEI, Fulton, and LRB are the definition of quality, and are all mil spec.

As for the FAL not being reliable, have you ever heard of the legend of Ol' Dirty? That is a fal over on falfiles.com that has fired over 15,000 rounds without any cleaning and is still going strong. I have never heard of an M1A or Saiga that has pulled anything like that off. With a FAL, if it becomes so fouled that it is starting to FTE, you can turn up the gas port pressure and it will keep running. It is a rugged gas piston operated rifle, just like the M1A. It actually has a really great reputation for reliability in all conditions from those who have used them. The Rhodesians swore by them in the Bush War.

Granted there are probably AK's in Africa that would put that thing to shame, but I don't know if I'm ready to ascribe that level of reliability to the .308 Saigas. I know they are made in Russia on the same equipment used to make military rifles, but they are chambered for a different (non-tapered) case with the NATO round for the .308 ones, among other changes. I have owned one and no doubt they are very reliable, but I'm not ready to say that they are more reliable than a FAL. A 7.62x39 one? Yeah, sure. A .308? I require more proof.

Oh well, we are probably nitpicking... pretty much all of the gas piston (or delayed blowback) operated 7.62mm battle rifles are going to be extremely reliable. Head and shoulders over a direct impingement rifle like an AR. And that says something about those battle rifles, because even the AR design is considered reliable enough to be our military's main service rifle!
 
Those saiga .308s are impressive for the value versus what you get. I just dont agree that FAL's are as inaccurate as you claim. I shot this at 100 yards with my Imbel build and paki POF surplus hardly tack driving ammo. It does better with my V-Max reloads. The shoot and see was a full 20 round mag of prvi M80 at 100 yards with my Brit
L1A1 and iron sights. The first 15 rounds went into 2 and a half inches. The group opened up after the barrel got hot. I have not tried a scope, but my feeling is I could tighten those groups if I did.
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OK guys. I didn't mean to offend anyone who owns and FAL or anything like that. I know about the DSAs and there are FAL systems that have been accurized and come with great barrels, great finishing and awesome triggers and obviously do WAY better than the average FAL.
I would stay away from surplus century stuff same way I stay away from Romanian surplus century junkyard systems.

I am aware about the Springfield Armory history but as far as I know the M1A cashes on the popularity of the M14 type by using GI parts and original specs and never found any evidence that while the cast receiver is not as robust it is of any concern as a one single point of failure as there is no recorded data about any failures with this. But I agree these are not the same systems we get in Afghanistan in those M14 crates. Obviously those are actual M14s to start with. I think that the M1A is pretty well made and with a bit preventive maintenance and w/o the need to go to the Fulton armory everyone is pretty happy with them and the reliability. The mills and materials are superb but you always have the option to go to the Fulton armory if you want. If it is just for one of those fancy stocks I would do it myself. It is really simple.

Also the L1A1 shorty is pretty good same way the socom comes pretty accurate and the saiga 16" is way more accurate than the 21".
The rule is that all things being equal more often than not the shorties give up a tad of speed but they show better grouping plus the added portability.

But please! saying that the SAIGA 308 has to be problem tested come on! It is extremely popular the Ukraine, Siberia and many remote regions with a great reputation to hunt anything from pigs(VEPR), bears in extreme conditions from 50 below degrees through rain, mud, ice, you call it. It is almost the same as the VEPR with a few differences in the slant receiver, stock type and metal but essentially the same carbines, one made in the MOLOT plant and the other in IZMASH. Read about it. Books talk about this to perform with the same degree of reliability as the old AK47 but with a .308 round and way more accurate. Our average ammo is far superior to the russian steel, their engineers also discovered this and have acknowledged that as contributing factor to the accuracy of these systems too.

http://robarm.com/M96_Home.htm

...by the way the targets above are with Surplus Ammo DAG NATO 150 grainers. nothing fancy.

Cheers,
E.
 
First the 308 is a great round. I hunt with it regularly, and it has never failed me IF I DO MY PART.

I had one of the original Springfield M1As, (Made in TX), bought in 77. It was a great rifle very accurate, great trigger. But it was a full size rifle and very unwieldy in the woods and veh.

In 2003 I bought an Enterprise FAL carbine. I like this rifle. The 16" bbl makes it very handy. This rifle has been nothing but reliable. The trigger isn't as good as the M1A but it's good enough, as is the accuracy.

The only rifle I would trade if for is the Kel-Tec RFB.

I have 2 sporting rifles in 308. Both are Brownings, 1 a BLR, the other a BAR. The BAR has had the stock cut to fit my wife, the BLR is my go to hunter.

There are so many 308s to choose from it's hard to say what is best for YOU. You need to start putting some to you shoulder, and even pulling the trigger on a few to find out what YOU like.

1st Marine, GREAT Sagia!! You have my gun lust in full rage. A bad thing for a old retiree on a fixed income. :eek:;):D:D
 
I can't believe nobody had mentioned what an absurd trigger comes on a Saiga. How has nobody mentioned this? That trigger is total joke, and has to be replaced. Davefl, in 1stmarine's picture the top one is right out of the box, while the middle one has been through a full conversion with trigger moved forward and a pistol grip installed. Notice the difference between the two trigger? I'd suggest you do yourself a favor and hold one of these before you order one online.

OMG, that friggin trigger is ridiculous. I have one, and did the conversion, and now that I have it's a fantastic platform. BBBBUUUUTTTT, out of the box those things are a joke. The plastic "sporter" stock it comes with feels like a toy. And the Tapco furniture is not a solution because the trigger isn't made to be used for a pistol grip, but for a sporter stock. The trigger pulls UP, not back. You have to do a conversion, and while it's not rocket science, it's by no means "no big deal". Its a project, and I'm glad I got through it cuz now I love mine. But I hated it at first, so there's a biggggg part of the equation going unmentioned here in all this Saiga .308 praise. That being said, they are pretty awesome once converted.
 
New Saiga .308 ~$500

pistol grip conversion ~$300

Spend the rest of your budget on mags and ammo.


My wife can hit the 500 yard gong with a bone-stock Saiga 21-inch, open sights, and Silver Bear SP ammo..."absurd" trigger and all.

YMMV

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General Disarray,
You are right!!! the trigger is a joke as in their attempt to 'sporterize' the AK the trigger is connected with a long arm and instead of pulling it feels more like lifting. You can actually use it but with a US made tapco G2 trigger for $25 the improvement is 200%. The good thing about the trigger being like that, like in the saiga shotguns, is that the conversion is even easier. There are no back pins to drill out. Simply remove the trigger plate at the bottom, put a tapco or other AK grip and presto! the trigger counts for 3 922r compliance parts which is great as it is also a huge improvement. A US made surefire magazine will give you 3 parts too so you do not need to do anything else but after you move the trigger you need the grip and the stock otherwise it will look like an abomination.

You can actually get the entire thing compliant for around $180 depending of options you want and how fancy you want it.

Read this post.... http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=567005

Cheers,
E.
 
My Saiga was $500, my K-var 2stage match trigger was $40, and the Surefire mag was $42. Then I bought a regular old used AK buttstock and pistol grip for $25.
 
Gotta say that I agree with the complaints about the saiga .308 trigger. However I dropped a Dinzag trigger group in it. . . and best trigger of any of my firearms.
 
Gotta say that I agree with the complaints about the saiga .308 trigger. However I dropped a Dinzag trigger group in it. . . and best trigger of any of my firearms.
Dinzag makes all the parts you need to do a nice conversion. I picked up some of those tabs they offer to cover the screw tops for the new screws in the new trigger guard and they made such a difference in the fit and finish.

Something I meant comment on came up in the OP which was Dave mentioned that he wanted this for home defense as well as range use, etc. Others may disagree, but .308 is not exactly a "home defense" solution. Ever see the ballistics and penetration stats of this caliber? There's a reason its used for Battle Rifle platforms; it annihilates protective cover like concrete and cinderblocks, etc. Sheetrock and manufactured walls don't stop .308; my point is while this does do a good job at stopping bad guys, walls don't do a good job at stopping this round so your neighbors are actually in harms way. For a reliable home defense weapon that's cheap and effective it's hard to beat a simple $200 Mossberg Pursuader. It's a 12ga shotgun with a 18" barrel and an 8 round mag.
 
I have been using the tapco G2 trigger single hook and it is coming out real crispy and predictable. Great for a tactical use if thats what you want.

Also I agree with the above. Very wise advice. Folks getting a .308 for home defense should be aware this round has some extreme penetration. Definitely less than ideal for an urban or apartment / building environment. I think ideal for a suburban area with plenty of 'room' or farm/ranch type of scenario.

Also look into some tactical rounds for home defense as you have some options with frangible bullets that are designed to kill but to disintegrate with hard targets.
Also be aware of muzzle direction even in a emergency/defensive situation. train for this as when the time comes you will not be thinking and this has to be done instinctively. Just like swat squads at both sides of a vehicle control stop going bad do know where they are supposed to stand and when to shoot so they do not end up shooting each other by rounds going through the targets.

Cheers,
E.
 
I really like my Saiga 308 and M1a rifles. I shot a deer with a Vepr 308 that I had converted to sidefolding configuration too. I told my friend that my Vepr was a better rifle than his AR-10. Very condescendingly he said "thats your opinion" inferring clearly that I was full of crap with that Russian gun. He didn't realize that I was showing him was basically the heart and soul of an RPK machine gun, vs. his aluminum Armalite sporter. In terms of reliability, that Vepr will shoot that Armalite into the ground.
 
whats better guys a bolt action or Semi-automatic i no its off topic sorry guys asking so much its my first rifle im going crazy in im make yous go crazy sorry
 
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