planetmobius
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Mine is a Remington 700 BDL with a Leupold scope. A far cry from a 15 pound match rifle and I could shoot it all day.
308 VS 300 wm
- Thread starter tequillaeagle
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Uncle Mike
Member
30-06.... you'll see!
SharpsDressedMan
member
"My question to all is i have the oppertunity to get either a 308 or a 300 win mag and im not sure what to get.. the main pourpose of this rifle would be punch paper @ 300 yards with the occasional trip to 600+ But i would also like to have a rifle that i can Elk hunt with in New Mexico" .............................................................................. Some of you have forgotten the question. No .223 is even going to target shoot at 300yds like a .30 cal (don't forget the wind). Shooting elk at any distance is better served by a .300WM. My gun is a slightly modified Sendero with a 24" barrel, plently light for hunting. If I am going to shoot 20-50rds at targets, I have the option of using a PAST pad, which leaves me with no bruises on the shoulder....could shoot all day long. I like the .30-06, too, but for the purposes dfined, the .300WM is better. As stated earlier, if reloading, the .300WM is not THAT much more expensive than the .308.
Uncle Mike
Member
You are quite right... my apologies.....
I would, if given but only these two choices, choose the 300 Winchester Magnum.
The 300Win. will suffice for a long range paper punch, as well as a elk, deer cartridge.
The 308Win., while not seriously handicapped for elk and such is, IMHO, marginal at best for these creatures at distance.
In short, given 'only' these two choices.... make mine the .300 winchester Magnum.
USSR
Member
Restrained to the two choices and main purpose mentioned, I would go with the .308. For the occasional elk hunt (since you reload), you can always load a premium 180gr hunting bullet to 2700fps, which will produce a world of hurt on any elk.
Don
snowpro440 said:
I don't agree with that at all. There is NO favorable comparison between a .308 and .300 Win Mag at 1000 yards. The diminutive .308 only has something on the order of 500 ft-lb of energy at 1000 yards whereas the .300 Win Mag has more energy than a .44 Rem Mag at the muzzle. Now add in the significant differences in bullet drop and wind drift between the two and clearly there's no excuse for taking a shot at an elk at 1000 yards with a .308.
1000+ yard shooting has two real-world applications. Competitive target shooting (where bullet energy isn't that important) and military scenarios where ethical kills are irrelevant since a gut shot on OBL will do just fine thank you very much. Let's be honest, who's going to take a 1000 yard shot at an elk? Before you answer that, you have to think about bullet drop (fairly easy) and wind drift (not easy) with no sighters. Top F-Class Open shooters can't hold 1/2 MOA at 1000 yards, heck, even 1 MOA in good conditions with sighters is tough. So unless you can put a cold bore shot in a 10" target at 1000 yards in real-world conditions then you shouldn't be thinking of shooting an elk at 1000 yards.
So now back to the original question of which to choose between a .308 and a .300 Win Mag. I have both, (and a .300 WSM) I like both and I've never had a problem with the Win Mag in terms of recoil, either in the original H-S stock or the current AICS. The recoil of the .300 Win Mag is overrated since it's more of a push than a thump. Also, why folks make a fuss about the belt on the Win Mag is beyond me ... I get many, many reloads with my cases.
However, if I could only choose one of the two it'd be the .308 hands down with ZERO regrets for the following reasons:
Excellent accuracy out to 600 yards
Easier/faster to shoot in terms of recoil (you WILL lose your sight picture with a .300 Win Mag ... you MIGHT not with a .308 if you have a good stock, suppressor or muzzle brake)
Less muzzle blast means less noise ... a lot less
About 35% cheaper to shoot if you're releoding
A lot cheaper to shoot if you're buying ammunition
Typically lighter (particularly with a 20" barrel)
Short action is easier and faster to work the bolt (good for tactical matches)
Enough bullet energy to ethically take sheep, deer, elk etc out to 500 yards, maybe a little further but shot placement becomes critical
Longer barrel life
At the end of day, you need to think about what you WILL use the rifle for, not what you HOPE or THINK you'll use the rifle for.
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Damn, now we need a .300 Win Mag to punch paper at 300 yards?!?
Magnumitis has really gotten bad!
Besides, wind reading is part of what makes it interesting after the first few shots.
That said, if you want an elk gun, and someone has you suspended over the Snake River Canyon on a piece of rope, and they're screaming, ".308 or .300 WinMag, DECIDE NOW or I CUT THE ROPE!", then .300 WinMag is the better choice.
I hunt with both .308 and .300 Win Mag.
To tell you the truth, If I were going to reload my own (and I do) I'd go with the Winchester .300 Short Mag. rather than the .300 Win Mag full length case.
The .308 is a fine rifle, has ballistics virtually identical to the .30-06 and you can find ACCURATE factory loaded ammo for it nearly anywhere.
While it's more than enough to take down Elk at 300 yards with the correct shot placement....
---Most people don't have the correct shot placement---
I have hunted hogs mule deer, moose, elk and bear with both the .308 and the .300 Short Mag (and .300 Win Mag.) and out of the three, I prefer the .300 WIN short mag.
I believe the .300 Winchester Short Mag gives me more bullet choices, a little more zip on the bullet (never hurts!) and they are as inherently accurate as the .308 rifles.
You can EASILY down load your target rounds so they don't kick the crap out of you every time you pull the trigger, so getting past the flinch isn't a huge issue,
And about every maker cranks out a rifle chambered in the .300 Win Short Mag now.
I put down a 690 Pound Alaskan Grizzly two years ago with a .300 Win Short Mag, 310 yards out,
One shot, got about 10 feet and dropped.
Couldn't have been a cleaner shot, and I was using factory loaded ammo... about $1.10 a round!
For smaller game, I couldn't recommend a .308 more up to Mule deer and even larger,
But Elk, Moose or dangerous game like bears or hogs, I suggest you step up to the magnum velocities and slow expanding bullets.
Just my opinion, so let the flames begin!
To tell you the truth, If I were going to reload my own (and I do) I'd go with the Winchester .300 Short Mag. rather than the .300 Win Mag full length case.
The .308 is a fine rifle, has ballistics virtually identical to the .30-06 and you can find ACCURATE factory loaded ammo for it nearly anywhere.
While it's more than enough to take down Elk at 300 yards with the correct shot placement....
---Most people don't have the correct shot placement---
I have hunted hogs mule deer, moose, elk and bear with both the .308 and the .300 Short Mag (and .300 Win Mag.) and out of the three, I prefer the .300 WIN short mag.
I believe the .300 Winchester Short Mag gives me more bullet choices, a little more zip on the bullet (never hurts!) and they are as inherently accurate as the .308 rifles.
You can EASILY down load your target rounds so they don't kick the crap out of you every time you pull the trigger, so getting past the flinch isn't a huge issue,
And about every maker cranks out a rifle chambered in the .300 Win Short Mag now.
I put down a 690 Pound Alaskan Grizzly two years ago with a .300 Win Short Mag, 310 yards out,
One shot, got about 10 feet and dropped.
Couldn't have been a cleaner shot, and I was using factory loaded ammo... about $1.10 a round!
For smaller game, I couldn't recommend a .308 more up to Mule deer and even larger,
But Elk, Moose or dangerous game like bears or hogs, I suggest you step up to the magnum velocities and slow expanding bullets.
Just my opinion, so let the flames begin!
BTW, what's the world record for a benchrest 1000 yard group?
I think it's in the just-under-4" range, but the rifle bears no resemblance to a hunting rifle, AFAIK it wasn't done with a hunting round (certainly not a hunting bullet), and it was done from a solid benchrest.
In real world field conditions, I'm not sure that anyone could promise to put a cold shot in a 10" circle at 1000 yards with a hunting rifle using hunting ammunition.
Yes, one could get lucky. There could be no wind. One could know the range to the yard. It could happen. But could someone legitimately be confident in being able to do it whenever called upon, with a .308, which is the slowest modern .30 caliber round?
No, they sure couldn't. And that's why no responsible hunter will attempt such a shot.
Unfortunately there are things such as this stupid video circulating on the Internet and likely influencing impressionable young people. Several questions come to mind: (1) are they too lazy to walk far from their truck? (2) do they not know how to stalk? (3) what is their back-up plan if they muff the shot and wound the animal?
Unfortunately there are things such as this stupid video circulating on the Internet and likely influencing impressionable young people. Several questions come to mind: (1) are they too lazy to walk far from their truck? (2) do they not know how to stalk? (3) what is their back-up plan if they muff the shot and wound the animal?
Maverick223
Member
I have to agree with 1858 and ArmedBear, there is no comparison at 1000 yards, the .308 has no place killing anything besides HP superwhite and Gophers at that range, and it bucks the wind like a semi truck at that range. If the 300WM and the .308 are the only options...the 300Winny wins hands down for your use. If you want to open up the search and include a couple others the .30-06 and 7mm Mag should be at the top of the list IMO.
Reid I don't think that the shot in the video is unreasonable if and only if the individual knew that he could make the shot. There are plenty of people that shouldn't hunt at 1000yds, but there are some that have the skill required to make the shot (this guy did well from what I can gather only from the video). There are some people that shouldn't be attempting a 50yd shot, because they haven't the skill to make it.
Reid I don't think that the shot in the video is unreasonable if and only if the individual knew that he could make the shot. There are plenty of people that shouldn't hunt at 1000yds, but there are some that have the skill required to make the shot (this guy did well from what I can gather only from the video). There are some people that shouldn't be attempting a 50yd shot, because they haven't the skill to make it.
More than one very experienced hunter told me that you should never take a shot past the 400 yards mark, no matter what...the risk of a non ethical, non perfect shot increase exponentially...
That said...
At 1000 yards various long range loads for the .308 retain ~550 ft/lb of energy (source: www.snipercentral.com)...the problem is the monstrous bullet drop compensation problem and wind issues at that range.
At the same distance mark, the long range loads for the 300 Win Mag retain ~850-870 ft/lb of energy....not an enormous difference after all....(less drop of course and better wind handling capability) but still....
The surprising 7.62 X 54R (the Mosin-Nagant round) sniper load (7N1 185 gr. BT) is neck to neck with the more powerful 300 Win Mag past 500 yards....at the 1 K mark it has ~750 ft/lb of energy left.
Beside the enormous challenge and non existant margin of error of a 1000 y hunting shot, the bullets used for that level of long range shooting are usually totally inadequate for hunting game purposes anyway...so it's a moot point...
Dream on.....at both their full potential, the 30-06 leaves the 308 in the dust....
That said...
At 1000 yards various long range loads for the .308 retain ~550 ft/lb of energy (source: www.snipercentral.com)...the problem is the monstrous bullet drop compensation problem and wind issues at that range.
At the same distance mark, the long range loads for the 300 Win Mag retain ~850-870 ft/lb of energy....not an enormous difference after all....(less drop of course and better wind handling capability) but still....
The surprising 7.62 X 54R (the Mosin-Nagant round) sniper load (7N1 185 gr. BT) is neck to neck with the more powerful 300 Win Mag past 500 yards....at the 1 K mark it has ~750 ft/lb of energy left.
Beside the enormous challenge and non existant margin of error of a 1000 y hunting shot, the bullets used for that level of long range shooting are usually totally inadequate for hunting game purposes anyway...so it's a moot point...
Dream on.....at both their full potential, the 30-06 leaves the 308 in the dust....
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Maverick223
Member
I am not saying there are scores of people that should take such a shot, just that a few can and have. I personally would not take the shot, at least not at the present time.
I quite agree with you Maverick, but: there is no real way that he can know. He may think that he can do it; he may be highly confident that he can do it; and indeed he may actually have done it several times before. But shooting in the field is not like shooting at a target range, and - as ArmedBear noted - there are variables such as wind and slope that can be estimated but not precisely known.
I have no quarrel with long range shooting as a sport; it's a great challenge! But it is inappropriate for hunting, since my question "what is their back-up plan if they muff the shot and wound the animal?" can never be satisfactorily answered. Animals deserve respect, and indeed obtain it from any true hunter. They should not be placed at undue risk of pain and suffering merely to satisfy some slob's ego.
Assuming that the above is correct, the question naturally arises "how far away is too far?" I doubt that it's possible to place a hard and fast rule on that: 500 yards is probably about a reasonable limit for very experienced hunters with appropriate equipment, while others are well advised to restrict themselves to 100 yards. The majority of us probably fall somewhere in between. Ultimately, we all have to use good judgment and listen to our conscience.
Anyway, as WileyWapiti says, hunting is about interacting with nature, not being some sort of remote assassin far removed from the "target". Good blog entry here. Great chart here.
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Maverick223
Member
What is the backup plan for a 50yd shot, there are no guarantees on second chances. I do feel that you should hunt as far as you would like and are able to do successfully. If you want to (and are able to) shoot deer at 1000yds with a Barrett Light Fifty that weighs 35lbs then I see no problem with it. I didn't necessarily say it is for me, I think 200yds is a long shot when hunting. Now lets get back to the original question...
moooose102
Member
buy the 300 win mag. you can download it to .30 carbine if you want to, and you will have the power when ever you need it. it is going to be pretty tough to try getting 300 win mag performance out of a 308!
saturno_v said:
According to ExBal, the load that I use in my Win Mag (208gr A-MAX with a MV of 2850 fps) has 1243 ft-lb of energy at 1000 yards (sea level). Compare that to the load that I use in my .308 (168gr SMK HPBT with a MV of 2700 fps) which has 461 ft-lb of energy at 1000 yards. That's a big difference to me.
This all comes back to real-world application that I mentioned earlier. The .300 Win Mag is an excellent F-Class and anti-personnel caliber with bullets such as the 208gr A-MAX, but its long-range game application is questionable since most of the bullets used for hunting have lower BC values which adversely affect terminal energy, as you pointed out. ArmedBear, the two heavy gun benchrest 10-shot WRs are both just over 3". That's why I mentioned F-Class Open where the rifles are shot prone and a rear bag or support is allowed. While not exactly the same, if those guys can't keep all the hits within a 5" circle at 1000 yards, and only a few keep them all in a 10" circle at 1000 yards, then there's no hope for the average hunter.
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Maverick223
Member
World Record (5 Shot Group) @ 1000yds = 1.403in. <- With a "Light" Class Rifle.
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