.32 isn't a self-defense gun?

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The .32 caliber pistol has been around for a respectable length of time.

The overall size and dimensions of the cartridge has always seemed to make it a very popular choice when it comes to designing and producing neat little pocket pistols that are reasonably well made and reliably functional. It's been said that it's easier to make a reliable .32 than it is to make a reliable .380 ...

Functional reliability is a primary concern in a defensive pocket pistol, especially one of a diminutive caliber ... and for MY purposes I consider a handgun which shoots a bullet of less than .38 caliber, and weighing less than 110gr, a diminutive caliber ...

When I was a young cop, though, I carried a couple of small pocket pistols and revolvers chambered in .25 & .22LR, as well as a nice little .380 Browning. This lasted until I gained a bit more experience in seeing people shot, reading shooting reports, etc ... Nowadays, .38 Special is my minimum caliber for a defensive weapon in those off-duty situations when I don't "expect" to need to be armed. Otherwise, it's 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP or the occasional .357 magnum.

I wouldn't necessarily criticize someone else's selection of a .32 for a legally concealed & carried defensive pistol, though ...

When my agency was reviewing and rewriting the policy related to personally owned off-duty weapons, it was determined that the minimum caliber allowed was going to be .32, which eliminated some .25 & .22 weapons previously carried by some folks. The same caliber restriction policy was written for Secondary(back-up) duty weapons. I know a guy carries a Seecamp .32 on rare occasions, for very dressy situations, but otherwise carries a Sc/Ti J-frame or 442 for a "minimum caliber" pocket weapon.

I see quite a few folks bring .22's to CCW classes, and one fellow that brought a .22 Short pocket pistol. If I were going to "question" someone's choice of a defensive caliber ... if it were any of my business ... it would be for choosing 25 ACP, .22LR or .22 Short , especially since it's not all that common to see pistols in these calibers function reliably through the short course of fire for the class.

Since my job brings me into a lot of people's homes, yards, property & businesses, and not always expectedly or invited ... and I spend a lot of my off duty time riding around the mountains and along the coast ... I've encountered my fair share of large, aggressive and/or "feral" dogs. At some point in the past, I decided that I wasn't going to carry any caliber that I didn't feel might be reasonably successful if used in "stopping" a large attacking dog ...

When it comes right down to it, though, before I really worried about "caliber", I'd consider it more important to gain a thorough understanding of the applicable laws involving the lawful use of deadly force ... develop SAFE weapon handling, carrying and shooting skills, AND maintain them ... buy as good a quality handgun as I could afford, suitable for MY anticpated needs ... and PRACTICE as often as I could afford. Shooting a firearm is generally considered to be a perishable skill ...
 
I carry a Kel Tec P32 32acp on a daily basis. If I were afraid that it wouldnt do its job I wouldnt carry it.

ps
Someone mentioned being shot with a BB gun. I have heard of people being shot and killed instantly with a BB/pellet rifles. :eek:

pss
Auburn 28 - Tenn Vols 21
WAR EAGLE!!!!!!!!:neener:
 
(Snowdog)
"I don't know what the hell this means" ?
First off, there are no hidden messages to the referenced passage to obfuscate the meaning or otherwise confuse. The meaning should be self-evident.
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I am sorry, I thought you were being sarcastic. I think the statement I was reacting to was

If you feel confident using a .32acp for self defense, that should be good enough; leave it at that.
What the heck does it matter what others think if you feel otherwise. They will only offer their opinions if you ask for it.
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Sometimes people feel overconfident just because they're carrying a gun, not realizing that they are actually very vulnerable. I thought this is what you were saying.
And of course, I did ask for other peoples' opinions. :)

To clarify:
If you personally feel confident using a .32acp for defense, you should neither feel the need to justify your decision nor seek the opinions of others...
Since I am confident that several holes in someone's face will in the very least end an attack against me, unsolicited dissenting opinions do not affect me, nor should it you.
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OK, now I see where you're coming from.

The truth is that I am a new shooter, don't yet own a gun, have never fired a .32, and have never seen someone shot or dressed a bullet wound.

Now maybe you will tell me to get off the computer and go get more instruction and shoot more guns. I wouldn't mind having the excuse. :)

But in the evenings I like to come here for general information.

The magic difference: Caliber, weight, velocity and ulitimately energy...the very things you are uninterested in (yet account for the difference in which you seek).
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I was a college physics major; I know how to figure out energy and velocity. I also know there are other factors involved:
Bullet's behavior on impact.
Reliability.
Accuracy.
Shootability (if a gun hurts my wrists when I shoot it, I won't practice as much).
Probably others that I wouldn't think of on my own.

That's why I'm so interested in experience rather than overall formulas.

But it sounds like I'll have to do my own research on this, which is odd, because I thought this would be the obvious place to start the research.
 
Not a problem, Dilettante.
When I first announced my purchased of a P32 for occasional carry, I encountered so much negative feedback that I naturally became defensive. I have since learned that there's no point trying to convince others when their philosophy has entrenched them against my point of view. This defensiveness is a time-wasting mechanism in which I was attempting to spare you (as you now know).

BTW, this place is excellent for general information and the latest info on the newest trends and items. However, I've long realized it's best to glean all the information and opinions available, but make the decision on my own.

When you've decided to buy your first handgun, this is as good a place as any for guidance, but be sure you'll receive such a diverse array of opinions as to give you a headache. Good luck with that. :)



My vote goes to a nice S&W or Ruger .38special revolver... but who asked me.
 
eThis, or variations of it, are a recurring theme here (and other gun forums). What is the minimum acceptable caliber? Is X caliber better than Y caliber? etc.

How much of an edge does carrying one caliber give you that you wouldn't have with another?

This is a question that I, and I'm sure many others, think about often.

Fact:
-A bigger caliber will leave a bigger holed
-No handgun bullet will leave that big a hole
-All handguns are not particularly good "manstoppers"


Keep in mind that even with rifles, which are much better at stopping people, a person can take a shot and keep going. If you are into military history like I am you will read about untold numbers of heros who fought on after being wounded. Medal citations are full of stories of guys who took a rifle round, 5 rifle rounds, 10, several machine gun rounds, etc. and kept on going. Many people have similar experiences but don't get medals. Some people get hit and are killed immediately, others drop and stop everything because they know there were hit and know they might die, some get an injury that gives them little choice and they go down. Others get mad, decide to take the enemy with them, don't notice, are so pumped up on adreneline that they can keep going anyway, are insane, etc. In a self defense situation add to that list of possibilities, drugged up, as well.

No caliber is a garauntee.

Given all the tangible and intangible factors needed to stop a bad guy- shot placement, penatration (even good penatrating calibers don't always penatrate and bad ones sometimes do- it is an average we go by), potentially weird bounces off bone a bullet can take, your attacker's state of mind, your attacker's resistance to pain, etc.- I wonder how much the caliber you use actually matters.

I'd be curious about what percent of the time a given caliber actually stops someone. That is the track that Marshall and Sanow used, but their methodology was so bad that their research might be completely useless (and is certainly less than ideal). I'm not sure you can ever really know.

I think what it comes down to is "are you comfortable with your caliber". If yes, keep it. If not, change it. Your confidence is one of the most important "intangibles" that you have some control over. Also, for years many calibers today seen as subpar were considered to be just fine. In the "Old West" untold numbers of cowboys got by just fine with the Colt 1851 Navy .36cal blackpowder revolver (not particularly powerful). Most European police agencies were quite happy with .32 and .380acp for their service pistols for decades. For the first quarter of this century US police forces probably used the .32S&W more than .38spl (and in the same sized guns). John Moses Browning is reported to have considered his .32acp cartridge his favorite. If you like .32acp, it is certainly a decent cartridge with many great guns chambered in it.

Personally, where I fall is that I'd prefer 9mm, .38spl or .380acp as my minimum main gun. However, I'd feel perfectly fine with a .32acp backup and occasional primary. I do feel that .32acp is my minimum and I'm not sure I'd be happy with .22lr or .25acp. However, that isn't really based on anything but my gut feelings (but that really is the best you will be able to get from anyone here).
 
I cant remember where i saw the statistic but, i seem to remember that more people have been killed by the .22LR than any other round in civilian (non military) shootings. And it was by a pretty fair margin too. I recall .25 and .32 having pretty respectable numbers too, probably due to the long term popularity of those cartridges in this country. But, still it makes the point that these small pistol rounds can kill quite handily.
 
c_yeager, I have seen the same statistic several times as well, 22LR is used in more homicides than any other round.

On another note, I recently watched a show produced by the NRA where they quoted that 99% of all defensive uses of a firearm were cases where the gun was drawn, and then the bad guy ran away. This would work whether a 45 was drawn or a 32. Most of the time, when you pull your gun, the conflict is going to end right then.

To look at it another way, if only 1% of criminals are going to stick around to get shot, and if your 32 is only a 50% stopper, then pulling the gun and firing will give you a statistical chance of 99.5% of stopping whatever attack has been launched against you.

How is that for statistical manipulation? Your 32 just became a 99.5% fight stopper!

The most important rule, it would seem, is to have a gun, any gun.
 
Chiam has a very valid point. Bill Hickok and John Wesly Hardin both developed quite a reputation as killers of fellow man and both used for the most part a 36 cal cap and ball that would be about equal to or slightly inferior to a 32 acp. It was their favored weapon. .
 
I was surprised at how accurate my Seecamp actually is...

And, since Jeff OTMG is at the gunshow in Evansville, I'll carry on with the RBCD Ammunition thing. ALL my .32's, in fact every pistol I own is loaded with RBCD. I've shot a lot of it into corned beef briskits, watermellons, etc... and I've got to say that I was impressed. I realize that not everyone is convinced.
(*Yet. :) )

KR
(Makin' a comeback here. Slow, but sure.)
EDIT: Went to look in my gunsafe. My P32 and my .32 H&R mag revolvers are not loaded with RBCD Ammunition. My P32 is loaded with 73gr Fiocchi FMJ and .32 H&R mag isn't made by RBCD.
 
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Actually, Mike, people DID die easier back then. They didn't have modern surgery and antibiotics. What would be a minor wound today was often fatal then. A few hours or days later.


Of course, just to keep us guessing, there's the cop who died on his way to a hospital after a gunfight even though he wasn't wounded. He THOUGHT he was, and died of fright, basically.



32acp's are the smallest slaughtering guns that are 100%
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NO gun is 100%. Weird things happen. Choosing a defensive round is about PROBABILTIES. You should choose the weapon that...

  1. ...you can carry. That's why we carry handguns in the first place - it's usually not practical to carry an M-1A or AR-15 all day long. That's why a .22 or a .32 is a MUCH better choice than nothing.
  2. ...you can shoot with accurately. A hit with a .22 (or .32) is better than a miss with a .44 mag. That's why for some people, a .32 is a better choice than a .44 mag EVEN WHEN CONCEALMENT IS NOT AN ISSUE.
  3. ...will give the greatest PROBABILITY of stopping an attacker or attackers. That means the biggest caliber that meets requirements 1 and 2. Caliber is the last criterion. But it does count. To ignore it is foolish.
    [/list=1]


    If you'd like to see learn something about wounding, I suggest taking a look at this forensic site. WARNING: The photos there are not pretty. Some of them are pretty bad. I seriously suggest you not look at them close to lunch time. Forget the machismo - this is bad stuff:

    Be sure to read the text that goes with them. I draw your attention in particular to this comment:



    "Head wounds are often the most serious, but not always fatal. Those that think headshots are a total solution have little clue about the human anatomy."
    Click to expand...


    Another photo is a CT scan of a head which shows skull fragments driven quite deeply into the brain, causing death. The bullet did not penetrate. However, note the large swelling, which suggests that death was NOT instantaneous.


    You may also find these educational. Again, some of these photos are not pretty at all.

    http://myweb.absa.co.za/elsdeng/html/gunshot_wounds.html

    (They've also got some gun related wallpaper - these ARE pretty!)


    http://www.firearmsid.com/index.htm
 
Actually, Mike, people DID die easier back then. They didn't have modern surgery and antibiotics. What would be a minor wound today was often fatal then. A few hours or days later.
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Um yeah, but modern medicine doesn't make you any less likely to be stopped by the shot. If I am attacked I don't really care if the BG is killed (well, I do, I'd rather not kill someone but either way that isn't going to be my immediate concern). I will care if I stop them. Shoot them and they live for 5 minutes before dying and they still have time to hurt you too. Shoot them, they collapse but survive and they still don't have a chance to cause you much harm. Again, this isn't really something that modern medicine will impact (however, modern advances in bullets will, and those are made with both large and small caliber chamberings).
 
I cant remember where i saw the statistic but, i seem to remember that more people have been killed by the .22LR than any other round in civilian (non military) shootings.
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Yes but... I'm not going to basically repeat my last post, but basically that would only really matter if you were an assassin. For self defense the important thing isn't killing someone but quickly putting them out of commission. I'm not saying .22lr won't work, just that we need to keep with relevant criteria.
 
Shooting somebody twice with a .32 would be like shooting them once with a .64...

I'm only half kidding! .32's and .380's make great concealable pocket guns. If the ballistics aren't that great, think of them as multi-shot devices - thats why they have magazines!

Keith
 
ALL bullets are dangerous ... and ALL of them CAN cause fatal or serious wounds.

Here's a link that offers some interesting information related to the behavior and wounding effects of smaller calibers upon the body ...
http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000454.html

Also, here's a link to some various firearms info that may be interesting, at least for the historical info, with the link taking you directly to an article written about the .32 ACP. You'll note the reference to Marshall & Sanow statistics, so take it as you will ...
http://www.chuckhawks.com/32ACP.htm

People react anything but consistently when they're wounded by handgun bullets ...

I once had a case where a man had been shot once with a .25 ACP, and the bullet was lodged close to his heart. He certainly seemed in poor shape in the E/R while I was asking him who had shot him ... until he heard I was taking possession of his clothing as evidence, and he realized his pants contained a fair quantity of drugs. He sat right up off the table, yelling that I couldn't take his clothing, and had to be restrained by the E/R staff. Go figure ...

Another time, I was involved in a shooting investigation where a man in very poor health had apparently suffered a gunshot wound to the head. If I remember correctly, the weapon I recovered at the scene was an older S&W revolver chambered in .32 S&W Long. There was significant visible trauma to the head, and the doctor discovered the bullet was lodged at the base of the brain. The man died the next day.

I knew a cop that was once involved in a gunfight off-duty. He was carrying a .25 ACP at the time, and the suspect was apparently carrying a 9mm. Neither of them hit the other during the exchange of gunfire ... but the cop decided to start carrying a larger caliber off-duty weapon afterward ...

What does this sort of anecdotal stuff mean? Nothing ...

Risk assessment is a very personal consideration. There's a wealth of information available nowadays in magazines & books, online, and at training schools & seminars. The trick is to sort through the info and glean what's accurate, useful and relevant for YOUR circumstances and needs ... and this can include what model handgun and caliber would be suitable for YOUR lawful defensive needs.

That other fellow I previously mentioned that sometimes carries his "watch fob" Seecamp .32? Well, he's very fast, and very good with it ...
 
No handgun bullet will leave that big a hole " - Not true! A black talon or ranger talon(and others) 45acp leaves "a big hole" in everything I shot dead with it! Of course a .44 Mag with 240 or 300 XTP's and others, leaves a big hole . All calibers over .40, WITH PROPER BULLETS, leave "a big hole" of over 1/2" . A big hole thru non vital tissue, of course, ain't as good as a .32 hole thru a vital organ. I don't think all those German's considered their .32 pistols as inadequate to kill people reasonably quickly. Once again a .32acp is NOT a .25 or .22!:)
 
Can't say I didn't warn you. It's serious stuff.



Now think about this: Cops get paid to see that stuff BEFORE it's cleaned up. Somewhere, right now, some cop is looking at a mess like that because we asked him to take care of the rough stuff for us.



We don't pay them enough.
 
Thanks for the warning Quartus. At least I knew what I was getting into.

There's some stuff you should probably see once in your life. Hopefully that's all I will have to. :)
 
The vast majority of defensive gun uses are deterrent. Having a gun is much more important than not.

The stopping power studies on goats and from M&S also don't cover folks who took one round and skeedaddled. That is good from my point of view.

Have the best gun you can reasonably carry and afford. Get some training if you can. That will do most folks more good than the endless drone of you must carry a 1911.
 
No handgun bullet will leave that big a hole " - Not true! A black talon or ranger talon(and others) 45acp leaves "a big hole" in everything I shot dead with it!
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Well, with a good HP and some luck a .45acp or .44mag might leave up to a 0.60 or 0.70" hole. Considering that the average American male is 5'8"-6' tall and 150-200LBS that isn't that big a hole. Of course any hole is too much if it was to be put into my body, especially considering that a .22" hole can be more than enough sometimes. Certainly, at minimum any will hurt like heck.

The vast majority of defensive gun uses are deterrent. Having a gun is much more important than not.
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Which is why when possible I would much prefer at least a .380 or 9mm and I'll probably carry the biggest gun I comfortably can (when in a CCW state)- the bigger the gun and the bigger opening the bigger the "oh sh.." quotient.:D
 
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